Kilt Go Braugh? A cultural/historical question

[highlander_Daz]

yes correct although sir seans mother is a mcKenzie, also David Tennants (McDonald) Mothers family are from Derry, etc

[Edward Teach]

I was thinking about this whilst watching The Fugitive again the other day...St Paddy's Day parade scene and look! There's a pipe band!

Maybe it's simply that an apprecation for the pipes and pipe bands isn't limited to the Scots!

Me, I'll take ANY excuse to drink and listen to pipe bands, no matter how tenuous the connection...

[wscottmac]

assuming that Scotland has "one attitude fits all" whereas there tends to different attitudes in different areas,

Daz - Thanks. That's the kind of stuff I was looking for. I had forgotten about the Celtic/Park Rangers deal, and how there were so many Celtic fans in the west of Scotland. Great insight. I appreciate you writing that out for our collective benefit.

[Archangel]

I came across a good way of presenting Scottish views from a book by Michael Lynch, Scotland. He suggests we view Scotland as three diagonals regions based on the geographical dividing structures. From that perspective we can avoid lumping the whole country together. Each diagonal has their own commonality rather than with the whole country.

On the kilt on St. Patrick's day question, I'd say go for it. I don't think anybody really knows and just go for anything vaguely Celtic. I've had more yics (yahoos in cars) shouting out anti-Irish sentiments at me when I'm kilted than anything Scottish, go figure.

[McFarkus]

I came across a good way of presenting Scottish views from a book by Michael Lynch, Scotland. He suggests we view Scotland as three diagonals regions based on the geographical dividing structures. From that perspective we can avoid lumping the whole country together. Each diagonal has their own commonality rather than with the whole country.

I'd like to hear more about the regions - or do I need to get the book?

[Archangel]

Seeing as I'm still up...

The book is a very comprehensive history of Scotland so you might enjoy reading it. I like reading histories and court cases, I'm funny that way.

Anyway, we tend to think in terms of longitudes and latitudes. Scotland doesn't do many things straight (check out the Irn Bru ads).

Have a look at the map of Scotland. We always thought it looked like a witch on a broom. There's two big indents on the east coast: the Firth of Forth in the south; the Firth of Moray in the north. On the west there's also two but not so clearly defined: Clyde and Lorne.

There's a mountain range in the south that runs from the north side of the Forth to the Clyde. Until recently that was an effective barrier to travel. South of that range is land that is accessible to England and all that entails. Edinburgh is in that region. Most of the battles and political action takes place in this region. As a rule, nobody got past Stirling. The Romans built two walls here to keep the Picts back.

North of that range, is what is considered the highlands. The geography created pockets of people, clans. Glasgow is in lower western corner of this region (it's actually south of Edinburgh but grouped north of it). Most of the clan history takes place here. This is where the Gaelic is more common. Few invaders got through to this area, except for the last time. The north border of this region is the diagonal along the rift that runs along the Lorne-Moray line.

North of the Lorne-Moray line is where the pure Gaelic would be found. Also more Scandinavian influences. Picts ruled back when. No invader got past this line.

This is a very rough outline so I don't expect to get picked apart on this.

For the sake of the subject at hand, the Irish influence came into that middle region and spread through it. It kind of forced the Picts north and east. Later on in history, the English had some of the Scots from primarily the south region go back to Ireland and take over Irish estates. There's no real connection to the migrations, it's just the way it happened, causing all sorts of trouble on the way.

Again a rough overview, if you want more get the book, or Prebble's The Lion in the North.

[PiobBear]

I wear a kilt (saffron) every St. Patrick’s Day, but then I’m a piper; it’s required (I would even if I wasn’t; it’s an Irish kilt). My repertoire for the day is exclusively Irish (requests excepted); contrary to popular belief not all pipe music is Scottish. Many of my friends are of Scottish ancestry and they all turn out in their kilts too, as they do to any affair that’s even vaguely Celtic in nature, just as I and a couple of other friends do (in their County Mayo and All Ireland Green kilts) to “their” celebrations of Scottish culture, or as we all would if we knew of any Welsh or Manx cultural events; we’re kind of mutually supporting that way.
Speaking for myself, St. Patrick’s Day is a time to celebrate Irish history and culture and its myriad contributions to American society. While I’d never be mistaken for an ascetic (I like good music, dancing, craic and Guinness as much as anyone), St. Patrick’s Day is not an excuse to get snot-slinging, commode-hugging drunk, and I really don’t care for the fluorescent green Afro wigs, light-up shamrock deely-bobbers, mardi-gras beads and green beer that's come to be associated with St. Patrick's Day in the United States.

[McFarkus]

Again a rough overview, if you want more get the book, or Prebble's The Lion in the North.

Thanks! You've whet my appetite. I think I need to get the book.

[Andrewson]

If we're recommending books on Scottish History can I add that the best book I have ever read about that turning point in Scottish History - the Scottish Enlightenment post the 1707 Union of Parliaments - was written by an American academic, Arthur Herman: "The Scottish Enlightenment - The Scots' Invention of the Modern World" (ISBN 1-84115-276-5).

Among many other things he deals with the formation of presbyterian Northern Ireland and the spread of Scots to other parts of the world, especially the USA. A lively and fascinating read.

[jackson1863]

In my gut, and the back of my head, I can make sense of this, but I'm wondering about the cultural/historical background of Scots and Irish culture becoming sorta -- comfortably overlapped?

Admittedly, my response to your question will be more speculative than from a position of extensive research. First, I would say that I as an American am probably not able to appreciate fully all the dynamics of the question. Secondly, I speculate, as a Scot-Irish descendant of the MacNaughton clan (McKnight) whose ancestors came to America in the 1700's, that some of the overlap comes from that group of immigrants who came to America beginning in the 18th century. I wonder if our celebration of the holiday is more influenced by these descendants.

Perhaps a member more educated than I regarding the subject could speak to whether the Scot-Irish heritage in America has any bearing on the question of overlap.

Just raising some further thoughts and questions.

Great question by the way!