Clan badges vs family crests??

[macwilkin]

A wee correction Todd the 'Chiefs Crest Badge' is in a plain circle (usually accompanied by three feathers) The Clans folk's Badge is the 'Chiefs Crest' in a 'Strap and Buckle' to show allegiance to that chief. Even his heir apparent and all other siblings have to wear the 'crest' in a 'Strap & Buckle'

By Scots Heraldic law and Custom only the Chief/Armiger can use/wear 'his crest' outwith a circle all others should display the crest in a 'Strap & Buckle'

Mea culpa, mea culpa...

T.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

A wee correction Todd the 'Chiefs Crest Badge' is in a plain circle (usually accompanied by three feathers) The Clans folk's Badge is the 'Chiefs Crest' in a 'Strap and Buckle' to show allegiance to that chief. Even his heir apparent and all other siblings have to wear the 'crest' in a 'Strap & Buckle'

By Scots Heraldic law and Custom only the Chief/Armiger can use/wear 'his crest' outwith a circle all others should display the crest in a 'Strap & Buckle'

By courtesy all un-married children of an armiger are permitted to display their father's arms undifferenced until they reach their majority. At that time they must either abandon their paternal arms, sue out a differenced version of those arms, or sue out new arms altogether.

The only entitlement the child of an amiger has is the right to apply for a differenced version of the paternal arms. The heraldic authority having jurisdiction in the matter then determines two things: first, what if any, claim the child has to those arms, and second, what, if any, differences should be applied to those arms. The heraldic authority then issues a legal document which (1) confirms that the child is lawfully entitled to some form of use of the paternal arms, and (2) grants the use of those differenced or undifferenced arms to the child.

As to the use of a clansman's badge, like it or not, there is no automatic "right" to wear or display the same. In Scotland the crest, motto, and buckle and strap devise are technically and legally the property of the chief. As such he has the right to control its use, and to say who may--or may not-- wear the badge of a clansman. It has nothing to do with your surname, and everything to do with the good humour of your chief.

[macwilkin]

As to the use of a clansman's badge, like it or not, there is no automatic "right" to wear or display the same. In Scotland the crest, motto, and buckle and strap devise are technically and legally the property of the chief. As such he has the right to control its use, and to say who may--or may not-- wear the badge of a clansman. It has nothing to do with your surname, and everything to do with the good humour of your chief.

A very nice summary, Scott.

T.

[Sketraw]

By courtesy all un-married children of an armiger are permitted to display their father's arms undifferenced until they reach their majority. At that time they must either abandon their paternal arms, sue out a differenced version of those arms, or sue out new arms altogether.

Hi Scot, No, all siblings a re not entitled to display their fathers arms undifferented, the heir apparent has to display a three point label on the arms to show he is the heir apparent. All other male siblings use temporary cadency marks crescent, star, martlet etc 2nd 3rd and 4th sons for example until they leave the family home (usually regarded as 18) where upon they would have to matriculate arms from the father usually in the Scottish system with a bordure if they wished to use Scottish Arms, The only ones allowed to use the armigers arms without cadency but usually in a lozenge or oval is the armigers Wife and daughters.

The only entitlement the child of an amiger has is the right to apply for a differenced version of the paternal arms. The heraldic authority having jurisdiction in the matter then determines two things: first, what if any, claim the child has to those arms, and second, what, if any, differences should be applied to those arms. The heraldic authority then issues a legal document which (1) confirms that the child is lawfully entitled to some form of use of the paternal arms, and (2) grants the use of those differenced or undifferenced arms to the child.

Yes the siblings can if they wish apply for differenced arms of their maternal fathers usually, as I said previous, in a bordure. This does not apply to the Eldest Son as he inherits his father arms on his death, An eldest daughter can also inherit the fathers arms, however if she marries and adopts her husbands name she is no longer entitled, as she is no longer of the name. Ok if ther husband changes his name to hers or she keeps her own name in the marriage.

As to the use of a clansman's badge, like it or not, there is no automatic "right" to wear or display the same. In Scotland the crest, motto, and buckle and strap devise are technically and legally the property of the chief. As such he has the right to control its use, and to say who may--or may not-- wear the badge of a clansman. It has nothing to do with your surname, and everything to do with the good humour of your chief.

Yes correct, but the point I was trying to make was the chief wears his crest as is, or in a plain circle. All others wear it in a strap and buckle to show allegiance to the chief....yes it is up to the chief who can wear the crest in a strap and buckle and who does not, its his crest. See - Lyon Court Leaflet No2

[BoldHighlander]

See - Lyon Court Leaflet No2

Very interesting thread everyone & a very interesting leaflet. Thanks for sharing!

Regarding the leaflet, I have seen so many illustrations regarding clan symbols that its difficult (for me) to know what is correct.

I've seen one that showed the crest & wreath, alone, w/o strap & buckle, and with the motto in a scroll above it. Is there any kind of significance behind this particular illustration /display?

[Sketraw]

It could be someone is using it incorrectly as a badge rather than an indication of an allegiance to a clan.

[Glen C]

I suppose some mention should be made of the clan "plant badges" at this point. Long before the standardized tartans and mass-produced "crest badges" the clans were using their plant badges. These plants were worn on the bonnet for identification purposes. My clan’s plant badge is the fern. I have a gold plated fern fond that I use as a kilt pin; it looks great and pays tribute to a now seldom used clan badge

[Jack Daw]

Yep. Some corporations, such as a clan association, can have a coat of arms designed and recognized by the Lord Lyon. But, what a lot of clanspeople think is THEIR coat is not; it's their chief's.

[macwilkin]

Yep. The coat of arms belongs to the chief, too. It's not the clan coat of arms. Although, some corporations, such as a clan association, can have a coat of arms designed and recognized by the Lord Lyon. But, what a lot of clanspeople think is THEIR coat is not; it's their chief's.

Now you're preaching to the choir, Jack...:mrgreen:

T.

[Sketraw]

Some feudal Barons also have a grant of a 'plant badge'....

Michael A Aquino, Baron of Rachane

You can see the plant badge granted here is 'a fern'