Clan badges vs family crests??

[BoldHighlander]

This illustration might help in what I mentioned seeing in an earlier post.
Thats where I've seen (more than once) illustrated the crest with the motto above it *but* no belt etc encircling it.
Is it improper to display this way, or is it allowed in some form or another?
Just curious...

[Sketraw]

Hi Terry, There is nothing wrong in displaying the 'Crest & Motto' on a website for example as long as it is made clear whom the 'Crest & Motto' belongs to. It is always courteous to ask the owner of the crest & motto but this is not always possible.

The taboo bit is to give any indication that it is your crest & motto, or the family crest or motto. The same would apply to the whole achievement. One could display the whole Achievement (coat of arms) on a website but should again make clear who the arms belong to.

Let me give a better example perhaps; Lets say your name is 'Terry MacDonald' you quite innocently purchase a plaque with a coat of arms on it and stick it on the wall in your home and underneath it says MacDonald.

This could suggest that you are making a claim that these arms are yours, or suggesting these are your family coat of arms (Shriek). It does not tell the person looking at them who the arms belong to.

So lets say the arms you have stuck on your wall are that of the Chief of Clan MacDonald. The plaque underneath the COA should read "The Arms of G. J. MacDonald of MacDonald, Chief of Clan MacDonald".

To err on the safe side it is always better to just display the 'crest' in a strap & buckle with the motto round the outside. The whole achievement, or shield should never be displayed in a strap and buckle which, I have also seen done.

[BoldHighlander]

Hi Terry, There is nothing wrong in displaying the 'Crest & Motto' on a website for example as long as it is made clear whom the 'Crest & Motto' belongs to. It is always courteous to ask the owner of the crest & motto but this is not always possible.

So if I'm reading this right, and please correct me if I'm wrong, at the very least they should include "Clan MacX" with the crest & motto, if not the whole "The Arms of G. J. MacX of MacX, Chief of Clan MacX"?

Just want to be sure I understand correctly what your saying John.
And thank you for the replies, I greatly appreciate it.

[Sean_the_Kilted]

Crest Badges

A note on the wearing of feathers, HM Queen is the only one allowed to wear 4 feathers as Chief of Chiefs.

Thanks for posting the illustrations. What exactly is a armiger and whats the difference between a clan cheif and a chieftain. Finally are the feathers supposed to be representive of feathers from any particular type of bird (ie eagle, turkey, pigeon) or are they just generic feathers and why feathers (native american headdress allusion?)

[Sketraw]

So if I'm reading this right, and please correct me if I'm wrong, at the very least they should include "Clan MacX" with the crest & motto, if not the whole "The Arms of G. J. MacX of MacX, Chief of Clan MacX"?

Hi Terry, No to 'Clan MacX' because they are not the Arms of Clan MacX. It is not the clan which own the arms but the Chief. Keep remembering arms are personal property of one person (Scotland, England & Southern Ireland that is) apart from those granted to organisations.

Thanks for posting the illustrations. What exactly is a armiger and whats the difference between a clan cheif and a chieftain. Finally are the feathers supposed to be representive of feathers from any particular type of bird (ie eagle, turkey, pigeon)

Sean, An Armiger is a person who has and uses a Coat of Arms. A Chieftain is of lesser importance than the Chief and may well be a Baron or Laird who has a following. The feathers are Eagle Feathers (ok i know the artwork is C**P)

[Sean_the_Kilted]

Other than bragging rights, what good is a coat of arms? If I have a registered coat of arms in scotland or england, what does that enable me to do? If I was a UK resident (which I'm not),whats to prevent me from designing my own coat of arms and putting it on all my letterhead and other things without registering it? As long as its not owned by someone else, is there a penalty for doing so?

[macwilkin]

Other than bragging rights, what good is a coat of arms? If I have a registered coat of arms in scotland or england, what does that enable me to do?

The American College of Heraldry has this to say about the value of heraldry, Sean:

Armorial bearings contain a quality of intangibility which is most significant to the family. Lands, monies and properties may be lost because of economic changes, wars and other disaster, leaving ensuing generations without inheritance. However, a coat of arms is a recorded design of identification which is fully able to survive change and loss. It can even endure a dormant period only to be reclaimed by rightful descendants at a later time. At the armiger's demise, he leaves an armorial estate to his descendants throughout all future generations. It is a legacy which can never be depleted, devalued, lost or stolen; rather, the arms of just and honorable persons singularly increase in their meaning, significance and value as they are taken up and borne by those descendants in each generation who proudly claim their birthright by registering to bear the ancestral arms.

-- http://www.americancollegeofheraldry.org/

I think that sums up the value of heraldry quite nicely.

If I was a UK resident (which I'm not),whats to prevent me from designing my own coat of arms and putting it on all my letterhead and other things without registering it? As long as its not owned by someone else, is there a penalty for doing so?

An answer to this question can be found on the Heraldry Society of Scotland's web site:

Displaying arms which are not registered to you, or which you do not have a right to, can lead to prosecution in countries such as Scotland, where heraldry is carefully regulated. In other countries you could just look foolish.

-- http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/beginners.html

Regards,

Todd

[Sean_the_Kilted]

Quote:
Displaying arms which are not registered to you, or which you do not have a right to, can lead to prosecution in countries such as Scotland, where heraldry is carefully regulated. In other countries you could just look foolish.
-- http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/beginners.html

So pretty much anyone in scotland with a mug or t-shirt with a unregistered coat of arms, even if they designed it themselves, could be proscuted? What are the penaltiss for doing so? and has it been proscuted in recent times?

[Sean_the_Kilted]

Also what constitutes a punishable display of a coat of arms? Just the shield or does it have to be the whole shield, mantle, crest, and motto? Futhermore is it punishable if you display it inside your private home or just if you display it in public (ie front window of your business, t-shirt you wear to the mall, bumper sticker on your car, internet website). Could and have UK based websites which sell or just merely display unregistered coats of arms be proscuted? I hope i'm not offending anyone. I'm just curious to the legal nuiances of the whole coat of arms thing.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Quote:
Displaying arms which are not registered to you, or which you do not have a right to, can lead to prosecution in countries such as Scotland, where heraldry is carefully regulated. In other countries you could just look foolish.
-- http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/beginners.html

So pretty much anyone in scotland with a mug or t-shirt with a unregistered coat of arms, even if they designed it themselves, could be proscuted? What are the penaltiss for doing so? and has it been proscuted in recent times?

The Scottish office of arms is part of the Scottish court system, and the Lord Lyon is, in fact, a judge. One of the court officers is the Procurator Fiscal-- a sort of prosecuting attorney for the Court of the Lord Lyon. Every year several cases are brought before the Lyon Court and most are settled without the need for recourse to a trial. However some do go to trial and the penalties assessed can be significant.

In one rather high profile case the authorites stepped in and forced a bus company to remove "unlawfully displayed" arms from both sides of more than (as I recall) fifty busses. Other examples include the confiscation of goods, and the levying of fines.

Perhaps the most famous was the recent prosecution brought against the self-styled "Prince Michael of Albany" which resulted in criminal prosecution, loss of British nationality, and deportation back to his place of birth.

Now here's the thing. Lord Lyon doesn't go looking for cases to prosecute, the prosecutions are brought forward by private citizens and reviewed by the Court of the Lord Lyon. If they are found to be of merit then the case is referred to the Procurator Fiscal who initiates the legal process of dealing with the matter on behalf of the state.

So, aside from looking foolish, the numpty who designs his own coat of arms runs the very real risk that some self-appointed member of the Heraldry Police will complain to the authorites, and he'll be brought up on charges.

A "punishable display" is just that-- the display of any arms to which you have no legal rights (and that includes the clever design someone cooked up on his kitchen table). Displaying the shield alone is enough to warrant a proscecution, regardless of how it is displayed. Now if it is displayed within the four walls of your home, it is considered an artistic decoration, and no offense has ocurred. BUT if you use it in business (and that would include e-commerce) then it would constitute an offense. The sale of depictations of coats of arms (at least in Scotland) is, more or less, self-regulated by the manufacturers and retailers who have wisely decided that they do not wish to become embroiled in litigation, and therefore supply only the clansman's badge in the general course of their trade. Again, the position of the Lyon seems to be that as these are sold as "decorative items" no offense has ocurred.

As far as shop windows are concerned-- well the Procurator Fiscal has the statutory right to "smash the window" if necessary. 'Nuff said?

Hope that answers a few of your questions!