Who Was Prince Charlie Anyway?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Here too I would have to disagree. Most of Savile Row as well as Highland garb specialists such as Wm Anderson were outfitters of military uniforms.

While some Savile Row tailors did (and still do) military tailoring, that work represented only a fraction of their everyday trade-- civilian clothing. In the North, the high end tailors were Jardines (in Edinburgh) and Stewart Christies (also in Edinburgh, and still trading). While both firms did military tailoring (Stewart Christie still does the uniforms for the Royal Company of Archers) their bread and butter trade was, and still is, the civilian market.

The cut-down tails coat--- short Spencer Jacket--- became quite the rage among dandies in the late 1790s and was quickly morphed by others with military touches into the Hussar.

The short "riding coat" existed much earlier than the 1790s

The tails coat itself only became mainstream decades later in Regency period--- when everyone seemed to want to dress like Beau Brummell. The basis of the look, however, was as much military as civilian and the "civilian" elements more imported from the Continent (French revolutionary style) than home grown. One needs to recall the impact of Napoleon Bonaparte on French fashion in the early 1880s.

While George Brummell (1778-1840) did have some influence on men's fashion early in the Regency (1811-1820) it is the scandal which drove him from Court that has caused his name (and extravagances) to survive his downfall. As for "le Petite Empereur" by 1814 Napoleon was tucked up on St. Helena, eating arsenic-laden wall paper, and having very little to do with influencing much of anything, let alone men's fashion.

This also lead to rather spectacular uniforms. The Napoleonic Wars, in turn, exposed these military uniforms to a very wide audience and elements were feed back into civilian design. There were, of course, within Europe much counter-reaction to ""Sans Coulotte", none-the-less, French Revolutionary style also ended the dominance of breeches and brought forth the style of trousers.

There are a number of references above which I feel are inaccurate based on the dates, and events, you've mentioned. Rather than go into a lengthy dissertation on the subject, I'll merely point out that "trousers" in the from of trews, were worn fully half a century before the French Revolution. Of course, in Ireland the wearing of trousers goes back much farther. At the time of the revolution both the tails coat and trousers were regularly seen on well dressed gentlemen in France and elsewhere.

Mens "panatloons" had been getting longer since Tudor times until, by the end of the 17th century, Elizabethean "slops" had reached the knee. Here they paused briefly before continuing their march south, toward the ankles. The "knee britches" remained fashionable for nearly a century until the availability of cheap cloth made trousers more affordable, first among the fashionable and then among the masses...

BUT this is supposed to be about Prince Charlie coatees, not a discussion about the influence of the (defeated) French Army on military fashion, or how "beau" Brummell taught the Nobs to tie a tie... so, let's give this a rest and get back to the topic!

[gilmore]

Welcome back. It's good to see your erudition on the board again.

[BoldHighlander]

The subject to the right, William Duff (Atholeman), was always one of my favorite studies by MacLeay. In part the awesome beard but also his everyday appearance (represented here). Duff, who was a game-watcher for the Duke of Athole, was said to be a picturesque character whose usual unkempt appearance was tidied up by the artist(!!).

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

When did this change? Anyone?

Do you mean "when did the rot set in?" I'd go with the 1960s.

The twilight was the period between the World Wars (when you could still get "nice" things) and the "Golden Age" was sort of 1890-1914, the age we generally refer to as Edwardian (and Yes I know Victoria went t*ts up in 1901 and Edward did the same in 1911). The bespoke items from this period are fantastic examples of craftsmanship. Even the massed produced things were extremely well finished. But by the 1960s all the old craftsmen were pretty much gone, the dies used to stamp out clan badges and the like, in Birmingham, were pretty much worn out, and British labour was a joke-- just look what happened to the British auto industry.

What the 1960s gave us was the homogenized Scotsman, a parody of his elegant forebearers dressed as he was in an off the peg jacket that only fit where it touched, held together with fake horn buttons, with a chunk of coloured glass crowning a sgian dubh imported from Pakistan that hid in the top of his kilt-rental white socks, and wearing a kilt that was too short in the waist, too long in the hem, and often pieced together from the remains left over from another job. The whole art of elegantly wearing highland attire went down the pan with a gurgle that resounded from Sauchie Hall Street to Prince's Street and across the waters to the New World.

Where once a plethora of small shops did bespoke work, or provided made to measure jackets and waistcoats we now find those large retailers whose only interest lies in pushing as much "tartan tat" as possible out the door. The sad thing is that they stay in business due to the ignorance, and belligerence, of their clientele. Ignorant because they know no better, and belligerent when their poor mimicry of proper dress is brought to their attention, no mater how kindly the critique may be phrased.

Will there be a renaissance in highland dress? Hopefully yes, as more true gentlemen eschew the cheap and tawdry in favour of the more expensive quality craftsmen who still ply their trade. In this overly material society, where people subscribe to the theology of "more is better" as a way of compensating for their own moral or social short comings, or to try to fill up the sense of void created by their own low level of self-esteem, I am certain that there are those who will say "I would rather have one nice thing, than a trunk full of tat."

And that "one nice thing" might just be an Edwardian styled sporran.

[Monkey@Arms]

Will there be a renaissance in highland dress? Hopefully yes, as more true gentlemen eschew the cheap and tawdry in favour of the more expensive quality craftsmen who still ply their trade. In this overly material society, where people subscribe to the theology of "more is better" as a way of compensating for their own moral or social short comings, or to try to fill up the sense of void created by their own low level of self-esteem, I am certain that there are those who will say "I would rather have one nice thing, than a trunk full of tat."

And that "one nice thing" might just be an Edwardian styled sporran.

That's a lovely fantasy but unlikely to be most peoples reality in today's world. Unlike the fictional Mr. Steed of Avengers fame, I doubt most people could justify the cost of owning an umbrella made by a British craftsperson, let alone bespoke clothing. I am afraid your vision can only be shared by an economic elite. Men's fashions change, both in matters kilted and nonkilted.

Best regards,

Jake

[ccga3359]

The subject to the right, William Duff (Atholeman), was always one of my favorite studies by MacLeay. In part the awesome beard but also his everyday appearance (represented here). Duff, who was a game-watcher for the Duke of Athole, was said to be a picturesque character whose usual unkempt appearance was tidied up by the artist(!!).

Oh my, I thought it to be James MacMillan.

I am really liking the Tartan Argyle the gentleman on the left is wearing.

I know I posted this pic but is there any significance to the glengarry on the ground?

[sharpdressedscot]

He dropped it? Wind? The hat can move?

[Monkey@Arms]

Oh my, I thought it to be James MacMillan.



I am really liking the Tartan Argyle the gentleman on the left is wearing.

I know I posted this pic but is there any significance to the glengarry on the ground?

Uhm, Mr. Brown was about to perform the Highland version of the Mexican Hat Dance?



Best regards,

Jake

[BoldHighlander]

One of the great things about MacLeay's paintings of Queen Victoria's highland retainers, is not just that its a snapshot of a time long since gone, but all the wonderful sporrans

I'm going to post three more below that are somewhat different than the rest (most are the hairy 'goat', in some variation or the other).
The first of Duncan Drummond & Andrew Murray, show's Murray with the 'standard' badger:



next is Archibald MacKintosh & Alexander MacKintosh. Note the sporrans, with their raccoon heads, though I question if the body of the sporran is 'coon. In a larger version the fur doesn't look like it, espically when I compare to the raccoon's I've worked with:



finally this one of Kenneth MacSwyde & Donald MacAulay (Harris Men) I find interesting not only for the unusual sporran that MacSwyde is wearing, but also for the hairy waist belt & baldric he has on as well:



It should be noted that the men in the MacLeay portraits were chosen by the clan chiefs themselves. These portraits were commissioned by Queen Victoria around 1865, and were exhibited in Bond Street, London in 1869, where they caused a sensation and a limited edition printing was done in 1870 (they have since been reproduced).
The originals are preserved in the Royal Library at Windsor Castle.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Will there be a renaissance in highland dress? Hopefully yes, as more true gentlemen eschew the cheap and tawdry in favour of the more expensive quality craftsmen who still ply their trade. In this overly material society, where people subscribe to the theology of "more is better" as a way of compensating for their own moral or social short comings, or to try to fill up the sense of void created by their own low level of self-esteem, I am certain that there are those who will say "I would rather have one nice thing, than a trunk full of tat."

And that "one nice thing" might just be an Edwardian styled sporran.

I sympathize with this post greatly. Different people will have different perspectives, of course, based not only on economics, but also on your attidude regarding highland dress. If you view the kilt as simply a fun thing to wear to go pub crawling on, or support your local football club, your perspective will differ from those who view the kilt as a heritage garment first and foremost. I know many people on this forum fall into both categories, and that's ok, too.

As for me, I wear kilts all the time as part of my professional attire. Since I work with Highland dress for a living, I always try to put forth a good impression, which is not to say I always dress in jacket and tie, but even when I dress very casually I like to look nice. For that reason, and simply for the fact that I wear kilts on a very frequent basis, I have over the past several years developed a deep appreciation for fine quality Highland dress items (and consequently other types of items, as well), specifically hand crafted items.

This is why I love my Ferguson Britt sporrans. Anyone who holds one in their hands can tell you that they exude hand crafted quality. This is why my favorite hose are the ones my wife hand knits for me. This is why I love Harris tweed. And so on....

My point in posting this, however, is not to tout my own personal preferences, but to suggest that investing in such quality items can actually be a form of frugality. While buying a quality hand crafted item like those mentioned will undoubtedly cost more up front, in the long run it may actually be less expensive. Items such as these will last many years -- often a lifetime. Less expensive items will often wear out and need frequent replacement. In this age of consumerism where everything we buy is seen as disposable, how refreshing is it to wear a sporran and think, one day my grandson will wear this and think of his grandfather...

Yes, quality costs money, but the funny thing about quality -- it's always a sound investment!

Aye,
Matt