6 Nations Rugby Tournament

[Phil]

I think he meant England - common mistake as you will know only too well. For the sake of others equally confused our present setup here is the United Kingdom of Great Britain (Brits) and Northern Ireland, hence UK on our passports. England, Wales and Scotland make up Britain, Northern Ireland doesn't and the Irish Republic (south) is a completely independant and separate country. To add to the confusion they also include some Northern Irish players from time to time. Most foreigners when they refer to England really mean the British Isles and most English people when referring to Britain and the British are really only referring to themselves. Confusing isn't it?

[davecolorado72]

Without getting into a policy debate, I guess I like to think of each 'nation' as their own entity, regardless of any outside influences from other nations.

Just my opinion on things.

Otherwise it would be the "4 nations" tourney....Britain, Italy, France, and Ireland.

[McClef]

No problem Dave.

You may well think of yourself as a Coloradan first and American second, so it is over here - the Brits occupy the island of Great Britain and comprise of Welsh Scots and English who live in and move around - you get Scots in Wales and English in Scotland etc etc.

We have a common National Anthem for events when the whole Kingdom is being represented and our own individual anthems for when it is the constituent country being represented as for example in Rugby.

The Northern Ireland chap thinking of himself as British is due to the six counties of the Province of Ulster that voted to remain within the United Kingdom rather than go with the rest of Ireland. But you can bet your bottom dollar he thinks of himself as an Ulsterman first. Of course there are others who see themselves as Irish first and indeed, in Rugby, because they do not field their own team in this tournament, many will support Ireland as an all inclusive representative team.

What you will also find is that rivalries can go out of the window - when England was the only UK team in the World Cup, everyone fell behind them and the flags of St George fluttered everywhere, including Wales and Scotland!

[Phil]

We have a common National Anthem for events when the whole Kingdom is being represented and our own individual anthems for when it is the constituent country being represented as for example in Rugby.

I have to differ on this one - I know of very few, if any, Scots who acknowledge the "National Anthem" no doubt due to its verse -
"Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King."
hardly something the population here thinks it should go along with.

In common with Cessna I have Ulster relations and they fiercely regard themselves as British first, second and last. I recently had my nose bitten off when I raised the prospect of an "Irish wedding". "It will be nothing of the kind" I was told in no uncertain terms "It will be a British wedding". Times there may have moved on but attitudes certainly have not.

Finally I have to assume that you did not visit Scotland during the rugby world cup as I only recall seeing one English flag and that was in a quiet country place in the north of Scotland. Everyone else from our then First Minister Jack McConnell down preferred to support whichever team England was playing. Nothing xenophobic there of course, just the natural Scottish regard for the underdog because let's face it, the English sporting media never tire of telling us how everyone else is just that.
I will be supporting Wales from now on but Italy this afternoon.

[McClef]

The verse you cite Phil is a defunct one that has almost certainly never used for some considerable time. It represents an attitude which has almost died out with the dinosaurs. Like it or not it is still the official anthem of the United Kingdom as a whole and the tune is also the Royal Anthem of Norway, of Lichtenstein and they even sing the tune in the USA! My Country T'is of Thee.

The number of people who know even the second verse these days is considerably limited. There are many verses of songs that have been dropped with time and words get changed. Even if one chooses not to sing the words, the tune is the same.

The idea of Country anthems within the UK is of more recent antiquity. The Wales anthem Hen Wlad Fy'n Hadau is nineteenth century and the "English" Land of Hope and Glory (this is still considered Brit in some circumstances) early 20th. Heck Scotland the Brave as a tune is early 20th and the words from the 1950s and Flower of Scotland even later though its popularity over other candidates is undisputed.

As to the flags - I saw very many in Wales and media coverage showed them in Scotland also. Maybe they only came out for the cameras?

[davecolorado72]

You may well think of yourself as a Coloradan first and American second, so it is over here - the Brits occupy the island of Great Britain and comprise of Welsh Scots and English who live in and move around - you get Scots in Wales and English in Scotland etc etc.

I think what you're saying is a bit misleading here. In regards to National identity the state I live in has nothing to with with my national identity. My passport lists me as a US citizen, not a Coloradoan. If the US is playing Mexico in the World Cup I am pulling for the US, not Colorado.

Now if someone invaded America and colonized my country then I am sure my passport may be a bit more muddled. And there may be some national anthem playing issues.

It would be like being from co cork in ireland. Cork is my county, not my nationality. What you're proposing is that these nations have dual national identity. What I am saying is that I don't think that is necessarily appropriate.

[Phil]

[QUOTE=davecolorado72;490639]I think what you're saying is a bit misleading here. In regards to National identity the state I live in has nothing to with with my national identity. My passport lists me as a US citizen, not a Coloradoan. If the US is playing Mexico in the World Cup I am pulling for the US, not Colorado. [QUOTE]

I think what you're saying is a bit misleading here. In regards to National identity the state I live in has nothing to with with my national identity. My passport lists me as a US citizen, not a Coloradoan. If the US is playing Mexico in the World Cup I am pulling for the US, not Colorado.

I think McClef might have used a better analogy. What we have in the UK is a bit like the US & Canada. Wales is a bit like Colorado in that it has been subsumed into England for hundreds of years and, although it likes to retain a regional identity, has not been a sovereign nation since it was conquered by the English and does not have its own system of laws and education but follows those of England. Scotland, however, always was an independent nation with its own kings, laws, language and customs and only entered into a mutually agreed union in 1707 because England feared an alliance between Scotland and France and the then ruling classes in Scotland had squandered their money on an ill-fated expedition to Central America (The Darien Scheme). They saw this as a way of recouping their losses (bought and sold for English gold - Robert Burns) and, as most of them already had land in England it made no great difference for them. This was nothing new, by the way. Comyn, Edward's puppet at the time of Wallace, himself held substantial estates in England and self-interest is always a powerful persuader. Votes for all was a non-existent joke in those days so it was never a democratic decision. I hope you see, therefore, why Scotland has a distinct national identity, quite separate from its southern neighbour, England in much the same way as Canada, I assume, does from the USA.

[McClef]

I apologise if I appear to have been misleading.

I was simply trying to point out that local loyalties can subsume wider ones which is why states or constituent countries of a greater whole like to have a wide degree of autonomy.

It is nothing to do with what citizenship shows on your passport which will reflect in any case the greater whole - US, UK, Canada or whatever.

In the case of Wales, as Phil points out, there never was a formal act of union - that same "proud Edward whose army was sent hamewards tae think again" foisted his eldest son as Prince of Wales and hence started the tradition of the male heir to the throne having this title. The "investiture" thing is much more modern!

Devolution is an ongoing process and Y Cynilliad Cymru - Welsh Assembly will gradually get more powers and become a Parliament like the Scottish one.

Such powers have been enjoyed by individual states (or provinces) for years or indeed centuries on the continent of North America - over here we are finally catching up!