The Mayflower

[SteveB]

It is indeed very interesting that a few of the rabble are Mayflower descendants. McFargus (I love your avatar BTW) you are indeed among the normal of the United States and Canada. Most have lineage back to the prolific families of Alden, Howland, Hopkins, and Warren. You are a cousin to my spouse, who has proven lines to Howland, Brewster, Sampson, Rogers, Tilley, and Warren. I would think it fun to get as many of the rabble who are members of the Mayflower Society together at Congress for a show of the tartan during one of the sessions. Just like the Mayflower Pilgrims, we are known to get together at Congress and pull off many surprises.

[gilmore]

... McFargus (I love your avatar BTW) you are indeed among the normal of the United States and Canada. Most have lineage back to the prolific families of Alden, Howland, Hopkins, and Warren. ....

I beg to differ. It is not at all "normal" for Americans and Canadians to be descendants of a passenger on the Mayflower. In fact, I would guess those are very much in a minority.

During the colonial period, far more immigrants came to the Southern and mid-Atlantic colonies than the New England colonies, and are therefore far less likely to have intermarried with Mayflower descendants.

The significance of the Mayflower has over the years become a far overblown myth. The settlement at Plymouth, Massachusetts, wasn't even the first permanent English colony in the New World. That was Jamestowne, Virginia, founded in 1607. The Mayflower didn't arrive until some 13 years later.

[Cerebite]

A few points and comments

First my "credentials"; I am a John Alden, 11 th generation from the Mayflower. My father and his brother were the first in my line of descent to leave a 15 mile radius of Plymouth rock.

-A Mayflower tartan would be outstanding.

-My dad once calculated that if the Aldens had continued to procreate at the rate they started at [and in my genealogy they seldom slowed down LOL] there would be on the order of 2.5 MILLION Aldens in N America by now [isn't math fun ]

-John Alden was not a passenger, he was the ships Cooper who had the "misfortune" to fall in love and be one of the few if not only eligible bachelors in the colony [with the exception of "Grampa" Standish].

-Those "Silver Bibles" are worth their weight in gold for filling in the "upper branches" of the the family tree [until the "trunk" stops 5 feet of the ground ]. Someday soon I hope to send in my application and determine what I still need to be "certified" and admitted to the Alden Kindred.

-Funny that someone mentioned the Jamestown colony as my mothers side has a lot of Byrds which is a prominent early Virginia family. I have yet to make the connection from Kentucky to VA but keep hoping, maybe when I start working on the genealogy again instead of hanging out on the Kilt forum.

[Larry124]

Not me, but my wife is descended from Myles Standish.
For years our Thanksgiving Day dinner was presented on a long table originally from the Plymouth Plantation.

Other New England families in her (maternal) tree are Josselyn (Cornish) and Marsh (English, Kent).
Her father was a Latta (Scottish, Ayrshire).

Myles Standish or the Standish family apparently owned land on the Isle of Man so one of the Manx tartans from Laxey Woollen Mills might be used.

[Riverkilt]

You're right Gilmore...just they didn't fare so well down in Virginia early on. And the overblown part is flat wrong, representing the fun loving Plymouth folks as dour Puritans.

All the ancestors I've ever been able to trace have come by way of New England and Canada. No connection to southern lines. Farthest south I've found any ancestors living has been Northern Kentucky and Arkansas.

Still would be cool if there were a tartan since Mayflower descendents are a sort of clan.

Ron

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

During the colonial period, far more immigrants came to the Southern and mid-Atlantic colonies than the New England colonies, and are therefore far less likely to have intermarried with Mayflower descendants.

That is, of course, possibly correct, but only for the first few decades prior to the westward expansion of Europeans settled in North America. Following the War of Independence perhaps as many as one-in-three New Englanders relocated to Canada, bringing with them their possible descent from the "Pilgrim Fathers". Further, with the "push west" into western Pennsylvania and on into the Ohio valley there was more inter-marriage between early "New Englanders" (and I'm loosely defining these people has having come from north of New York) and the rest of the northern and mid-Atlantic population.

Following the population upheavals in the wake of the Civil War, WWI and WWII, the seed of John Alden has been sprinkled pretty liberally throughout all of North America.

2.5 million Alden "cousins"? Well, probably not, at least not provably. So where does that leave us in the discussion about a "Mayflower Tartan"? Let's look at the facts:

The Plymouth Colony was founded by individuals who were zealous in the pursuit of their beliefs-- they despised Catholicism, Anglicanism, and were intolerant of any liberal thought within their own community. They dressed in somber, dark colours, and did not permit their puritan brothers and sisters to wear bright colours or fancy clothing.

That said, it would seem that a "Mayflower" tartan would be the antithesis of their very fundamentalist beliefs. If one is proud of one's heritage, then I think part of that pride has to be exercised in respecting the beliefs of one's ancestors. That does not mean conforming to religious beliefs or doctrines not your own, but definitely respecting theirs.

Would the Pilgrim Fathers have wanted or condoned a "Mayflower" tartan in the Plymouth colony? I highly doubt it.

Do we need a "Mayflower" tartan? Well, I don't see a ground swell of opinion within the Mayflower Society demanding kilts like those (not) worn by the (English) settlers who founded the Plymouth Colony.

Draw your own conclusion.

[Riverkilt]

Weird there cousin,

All I ever learned about the Mayflower pilgrims is that they dressed in bright colorful colors and the dour black didn't show up until the Puritans came to the Boston area ten years later. John Howland had a red waist coat. Here's a link for info on the Mayflower passengers dress. http://www.sail1620.org/discover_fea...clothing.shtml

For me, that has been one of the sadest parts of the current description of my Mayflower ancestors - that they're mistaken for the Puritans. A bunch of the Mayflower folks were merchants...Going by memory here but I think my Mullins ancestor brought a LOT of shoes to sell and after he died they came in handy for the survivors.

Its the history of bright colors, as well as the "clan" of descendents that had me looking for a tartan initially.

Ron

[McFarkus]

The significance of the Mayflower has over the years become a far overblown myth. The settlement at Plymouth, Massachusetts, wasn't even the first permanent English colony in the New World. That was Jamestowne, Virginia, founded in 1607. The Mayflower didn't arrive until some 13 years later.

True! My mother used to say (before I showed her that SHE had Mayflower ancestors) the her ancestors were on the dock (at Jamestown) waiting for the Mayflower, but they went off course and ended up on Plymouth Rock. In fact, the first ship of African slaves arrived in 1619, two years before the Mayflower.

[Riverkilt]

Crack me up. 400 years later we're still trying to figure out who's the firstust with the mostust.

Me, I'm just grateful that John Alden decided to join the Mayflower crew, and that Priscilla Mullins took a liking to him, and that they didn't die with the many who did...otherwise, I'd not have recieved the gift of life or been able to frost that gift with hand sewn tartan kilts.

Ron

[macwilkin]

If you want to be technical, the Spanish at St. Augustine* were here before any of 'em, in 1565, to be exact -- and Sante Fe, New Mexico was founded in 1610, a decade before the Plymouth Seperatists landed in New England.

I think Rathdown's post was spot on, from a history teacher's point-of-view.

*The oldest European permanent settlement in North America.

Regards,

Todd