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  1. #51
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    5th September 05
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    The "Your Family Crest" businesses have been around for a very long time. I remember seeing ads for them when I was a kid...think the late 1950's. I ran to my dad and said, "Look...we can get out family coat of arms!" and my dad said, "That's a scam...they just make them up...just get out your crayons and you draw one...it'll be as legitimate a anything that these guys will send you."

    And so I did...and I started drawing it at the tops of all of my papers that I turned in at school...until the nuns made me stop it because I was obviously being a wise guy.

    But I've still seen those adverts through the years and I think that it says a lot about Americans that they have persisted...they obviously seem to get enough business to keep going. I think that it's just an insecurity that we have about being the mixed bag that we are...we feel that we have to have some legitimate roots to point to to be whole somehow and having someone find our "family crest" validates us. I've often wondered if our friends in Australia have the same feelings but I've always had the idea that Canadians had more of a handle on things and didn't feel the need the same way the folks in the USA did.

    Anyway, some member of my family did get the "coat of arms" and it was rather obvious that it was pretty much a generic one. The real one granted to my forebearer, Auld William, has surfaced and I wish that I had some kind of legitimate claim to it...not because I need an identity but just because it is so damn cool. If I was going to become a superhero, I'd use it as a basis for the spandex costume. I'd love to just get some patches made with it embroidered on them and pass them out at the next family reunion...sort of wear them like a baseball team wears a retired players number on the jersey as an homage.

    Best

    AA

  2. #52
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    12th February 08
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    Quote Originally Posted by auld argonian View Post
    The real one granted to my forebearer, Auld William, has surfaced and I wish that I had some kind of legitimate claim to it...not because I need an identity but just because it is so damn cool. If I was going to become a superhero, I'd use it as a basis for the spandex costume. I'd love to just get some patches made with it embroidered on them and pass them out at the next family reunion...sort of wear them like a baseball team wears a retired players number on the jersey as an homage.

    Best

    AA
    Why not use it anyway? I mean, he was an ancestor. You could at least have a copy of it lying about.

  3. #53
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    24th January 08
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    This is an interesting thread and it is good to see such debate.

    I am no lawyer but to me my feelings are the same as Todd, it is 'fraud' and if not fraud, identity theft. If someone was using my COA as there own they are for that matter stealing my identity which in turn could be used for fraudulent purposes. There is nothing wrong with displaying another's COA as long as you make reference to who's arms they are and not try and suggest that they are your arms or your families COA.

    Where many people go wrong is displaying there Chiefs COA on a plaque or such like, nothing wrong in displaying the arms, however the questionable bit is the name on the plaque or the like. Simple putting MacDonald underneath or above is not enough it should be clearly marked by either Chief of Clan Macdonald or MacDonald of MacDonald or MacDonald of that ilk etc. That way you are making it clear who's arms they belong to.

    I don't want to go over old ground but the 'Bucket Shops' are just out to make a fast buck out of people ignorance on the use and ownership of COA and are well aware of what they are doing (although those employed by them may not). One recent example was a member of the Clan Duncan Society prior to joining had the arms of the Earl of Camperdown tattooed on his back as he was told by one of these bucket shops that this was his Duncan 'family' COA.... to me they are extracting money from people fraudulently by selling products that are not there own or under licence to them.
    John A. Duncan of Sketraw
    "Oh wad some power the giftie gie us, tae see oorsel's as ithers see us."

    Clan Duncan Society The Heraldry Society of Scotland
    Scottish History Online

  4. #54
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    11th March 08
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    The quick and dirty legal definition of fraud is that someone tried to take you, you got took, and you lost money as a result. Here, you're getting pretty much what they purport to be selling - a coat of arms related to your family name, a history of that name, and a pretty picture. Lots of business foist off products on the ignorant, and that's not illegal actionable, necessarily.

    I think the question is more whether you're getting value for your money. You buy a $29.99 bit of information from a bucket shop, and you get exactly what you pay for. They look up the name in a big book and spit out what's in the computer, with not attention to whether you have any relationship to that family beyond a similar surname. Getting someone to do real research into your family would probably cost on the order of 100 times more than that, and take time and effort that would keep them from selling chachky in the mall.

    Anyway... I think it's another case of buyer beware. We just have to do our bit to educate people.
    "To the make of a piper go seven years of his own learning, and seven generations before. At the end of his seven years one born to it will stand at the start of knowledge, and leaning a fond ear to the drone he may have parley with old folks of old affairs." - Neil Munro

  5. #55
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    21st May 07
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    I've often wondered if our friends in Australia have the same feelings
    As an Aussie, we don't care at all for such stuff; Although as a joke people will often buy a "Family" coat of arms and display it over the "throne" in the toilet, but I have never seen one ever displayed seriously in an Australian's home.
    Although I come from a 'free' State, (South Australia never had convict settlers. only bona fide immigrants) , We all nationally share a disdain for anyone trying to claim social superiority. Coat of arms, titles etc, Aussies are totally unimpressed and "underwhelmed"

  6. #56
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    10th January 08
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    In the interest of designing an all-encompassing Seal/Coat of arms may I suggest a Fig Leaf and Apple and/or a monkey in a tree depending on where you think we come from. I mean if we REALLY want to trace our ancestry back...LOL.

  7. #57
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    15th March 07
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    I think a good question to post to this thread is, you have to ask yourself if you believe that a clan's tartan belongs to a family or not. I think if you believe that a clan "owns" a specific tartan, then I would probably think that you believe that a Coat of Arms belongs to a person or family.

    If you believe that no family technically "owns" a tartan, and anyone can wear whatever tartan they want, then I would think that you can use what ever Coat Of Arms you want.

    The truth is that heraldry is something very real, and can be attributed to a person identity. Most kings of both the medieval and modern eras had a coat of arms that belonged to them.

    Even as far back as the Ancient Roman Legions, they had signifiers that were specific to their legions and cohorts.

    Irish counties each have a different coat of arms that they use. I would like to find out who all these people are "registering" their coat of arms with, and I would personally purchase from them. Most of these online companies are probably fake, and just trying to make a buck, but I'm sure there is a real place somewhere.

    I would like to get my family's coat of arms tatooed on me, but I would obviously like to make sure that the COA that i'm getting is accurate and not some website's twist of it so that they can sell it.

    Anyways, I've babbled on long enough.

  8. #58
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    17th December 07
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayin McFye View Post
    I would like to get my family's coat of arms tatooed on me, but I would obviously like to make sure that the COA that i'm getting is accurate and not some website's twist of it so that they can sell it.
    So do the basic genealogy, trace back to your last provable Scottish or Irish ancestor, and apply for arms in the appropriate jurisdiction. When arms are granted, head off to the local ink slinger... couldn't be easier than that.

  9. #59
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    15th March 07
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown View Post
    So do the basic genealogy, trace back to your last provable Scottish or Irish ancestor, and apply for arms in the appropriate jurisdiction. When arms are granted, head off to the local ink slinger... couldn't be easier than that.
    Not a bad idea at all. Thanks for the suggestion!

  10. #60
    Join Date
    25th June 06
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    From http://www.scotarmigers.net/leaflet10.htm

    The Court of the Lord Lyon
    Genealogy, Heraldry and Tartans
    GENEALOGY, HERALDRY AND TARTANS
    General Information

    TRACING OF ANCESTRY, FAMILY HISTORIES ETC.

    We have to explain that this Department does not undertake to make researches, though the Public Registers and other collections of the Lyon Office will be made available at Search Fees for each particular search in the Register of Arms or in the Register of Genealogies and in the Heraldic and Genealogical MSS, or other collections of the Department. For this a searcher may require to be employed at a professional fee.

    NAME, SEPT, OR TARTAN

    This Department does not undertake to supply individual replies to questions regarding (a) Name (origins, etc.); (b) Sept; or (c) Tartan; for which reference should be made to the appropriate chapters of reliable books. Those undermentioned can usually be consulted in any large public library.

    "Heraldry in Scotland" by J. H. Stevenson (James Maclehose & Sons, Glasgow, 1914).

    "Scots Heraldry" by Sir Thomas Innes of Learney (Oliver & Boyd, 1956 & Johnston & Bacon, 1978).

    "Simple Heraldry" by Sir lain Moncreiffe of that Ilk and Don Pottinger (Thomas Nelson & Sons Ltd., 1953).

    Clans, Septs and Regiments of the Scottish Highlands" by Frank Adam, ed. Sir Thomas Innes of Learney (8th edition, Chapters XIII, XV, XVI, and List of Septs, pp. 554-570, Johnston and Bacon, 1970).

    "The Highland Clans" by Sir lain Moncreiffe of that Ilk (Barrie & Rockliff, 1967).

    "Scottish Clan & Family Encyclopedia" by George Way of Plean and Romilly Squire (Harper Collins, 1994).

    "Heraldic Standards and other Ensigns" by Robert Gayre of Gayre and Nigg (Oliver & Boyd, 1959).

    "Scottish Family History" by Margaret Stuart and Sir James Balfour Paul (Oliver & Boyd, 1930). Introduction regarding nature, form and sources for family histories, useful to both inquirers and family historians, and Index of published Family Histories to 1928.

    "Scottish Family Histories" held in Scottish Libraries, by Joan P. 5. Ferguson (Scottish Central Library, Edinburgh 1960, and revised edition compiled by Joan P. 5. Ferguson assisted by Dennis Smith and Peter Wellburn, National Library of Scotland, Edinburgh, 1986.)

    "The Surnames of Scotland" by George F. Black (New York Public Library, 1946).

    Burke’s Peerage and Burke’s Landed Gentry give the genealogies of many Chiefs and landed families.

    The Court and Office of the Lord Lyon deals only with tartans and Septs when these matters are brought up on Petition (or steps incidental to Petitions) for judicial or official pronouncement, on which the relative Government dues are exigible, and detailed evidence and proof is required.

    People normally wear only the tartan (if any) of their surname, or a "district tartan" connected with their residence or family’s place of origin.

    ARMORIAL BEARINGS

    Armorial bearings, being for distinguishing persons of, and within, a family, cannot descend to, or be used by, persons who are not members of the family. The surname indicates the family to which a person belongs. A person named Macdonald cannot bear a Ross coat of arms, or any part of it.

    The Chief’s coat of arms fulfils within the clan or family the same purposes as the Royal Arms do in a Kingdom. There is no such thing as a "family crest" or "family coat of arms" which anyone can assume, or a whole family can use.

    Armorial bearings, of which the Crest is a subsidiary part, are a form of individual heritage property, devolving upon one person at a time by succession from the grantee or confirmee, and thus descend like a Peerage. They indicate the Chief of the Family or Clan, or the Head of each subsidiary line or household descending from members who have themselves established in the Public Register of All Arms and Bearings in Scotland a right to a subsidiary version of the arms and crest, containing a mark of difference indicating their position in the Family or Clan. This is not a "new" coat of arms; it is the ancient ancestral arms with a mark of cadency, usefully showing the cadet’s place within the family.

    Shields

    The scheme shows a few of the variations only, but illustrates how the undifferenced arms descend to, and demonstrate, the successive Chiefs of the clan or family, and how subsidiary branch-arms descend to, and represent, each head of a cadet-house. Hundreds of variations are available, and use of the different shield on ones own book-plate or silverware identifies where you, and your own heirs, belong within the family. It is, as well as being beautiful, a valuable system of identification.

    The parts of the armorial bearings consist of:

    (a) The Shield, bearing the basic device;
    (b) The Helmet, with its Crest, which sits on top of the helmet;
    (c) The Motto in a scroll;
    (d) The Mantling or cape, which kept the sun off the wearer’s armour in hot weather;
    (e) Very rarely, two Supporters on either side of the shield, which are external attributes of the arms of Peers, Chiefs and a very few other persons of special importance, including Knights Grand Cross of Orders.

    It is illegal to assume and purport to use your Chief’s arms without a due and congruent recorded difference. Anyone who does so merely publishes their own ignorance.

    There is no such thing as a "Clan coat of arms". The arms are those of the Chief, and clansmen have only the privilege of wearing the strap-and-buckle crested badge to show they are such Chief’s clansmen.

    One cannot have a crest without first having a shield of arms, because the crest was a later addition. Misuse of crests arises from misunderstanding of the badge rule under which junior members of the family may wear in specified manner their Chief’s crest as badge.Crest

    CREST BADGE

    The Crest of the Chief is worn by all members of the Clan and of approved Septs and followers of the Clan, within a strap and buckle surround bearing the Chief’s motto. This is for personal wear only, to indicate that the wearer is a member of the Clan whose Chief’s crest-badge is being worn. The badge or crest is not depicted on personal or business stationery, signet rings or plate, because such use would legally import that the tea-pot, etc., was the Chief’s property

    ACQUISITION OF GRANTS AND MATRICULATIONS OF ARMS

    Those who wish to use arms in any personal sense must petition for a Grant of Arms or—if they can trace their ancestry back to a direct or, in some cases collateral, ancestor—a "cadet matriculation" showing their place within the family. Forms of Petition and sample proof-sheets relative to such applications can be supplied if required.

    Certificate

    When a grant, or matriculation, of arms is successfully obtained, an illuminated parchment, narrating the pedigree as proved, is supplied to the Petitioner, and a duplicate is recorded in the Public Register of All Arms and Bearings in Scotland and/or the Public Register of Genealogies and Birthbrieves.

    Application for such a Confirmation, by Letters Patent or Matriculation, from the Lord Lyon King of Arms is the only way to obtain a genuine coat of arms.

    British Commonwealth. Anyone domiciled in Her Majesty’s overseas realms or in The Commonwealth (except those of English, Welsh or Irish ancestry, who should approach Garter King of Arms in London or The Chief Herald of Ireland in Dublin) can apply to the Lord Lyon King of Arms of Scotland, H.M. New Register House, Edinburgh EH1 3YT, for a grant or matriculation of arms.

    Foreign Countries. Arms are not granted to non-British citizens (though those of Scottish ancestry can apply to the Lord Lyon King of Arms for cadet-matriculations, as above described). Moreover, even if not of direct armigerous descent, foreigners of Scottish descent can often arrange for a cousin in Scotland, or in one of Her Majesty’s overseas realms, to get arms established by the Lord Lyon King of Arms, and thereafter themselves to obtain a cadet-matriculation. Each party is in such cases supplied with an illuminated parchment.
    This was at the Society of Scottish Armigers web page!

    Just today,..... a co-worker brought up the "My family went to that place in St. Augastine and got our Family-COA!" Boy did I have stuff to say.
    ----------------------------------------------[URL="http://www.youtube.com/sirdaniel1975"]
    My Youtube Page[/URL]

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