Family Name and Clan

**actualrealproperscot** · 11th August 08, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by sharpdressedscot

So, what you're saying is, even if you have descent and heritage you can't be in a clan unless you're a real Scot?

Dude...

Had a scottish clan member migrated to north america, and had a son. Then no that son would not be a member of that clan. It is not neccassarily because he is american. It is because he is not in scotland living in the clan system.

You well know that the clan system was a balanced society where clan membership balanced on what you could do/owed your clan chief. It was not considered on some notion of bloodlines, descent and surnames. You were in a clan if you could offer that clan something or if you were born into through another clan system.

I doubt clan chiefs considered americans and canadians born hundreds of years into the future as part of their clan. It is silly to assume that there were complex rules on membership, A highland clan was not a golf club, it was a highland clan.

as I have said before clan societies are now clubs for people with last names, and I personally believe the vast majority of septs claiming to belong to a clan to be bollocks.

**sharpdressedscot** · 11th August 08, 07:57 PM

I see your point, but wouldn't that be a slap in the face for the clansmen that moved to America?

But then again, clans didn't necesarily matter in America at that time, well, in the big picture.

**Monkey@Arms** · 11th August 08, 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by sharpdressedscot

I see your point, but wouldn't that be a slap in the face for the clansmen that moved to America?

But then again, clans didn't necesarily matter in America at that time, well, in the big picture.

Not as big a slap as being forcibly evicted from your ancestral home by your chieftain to make way for sheep.

A lot of useful truths being spoken in this thread.

Best regards,

Jake

**Phil** · 12th August 08, 01:37 AM

Has anyone noticed how many so called "septs" have appeared recently. Every week seems to bring a new crop. The Buchanan Society lists about 4 names as officially members of the clan (although a number of others have gracious permission to wear the tartan!) but if you look up other sites it appears every Tom, Dick & Harry can be a sept. I wonder if it is these surname distribution sites and if one happens to be in the rough area a clan once existed it automatically becomes a sept - and, of course, another valuable customer for that particular tartan. By the same token, as I once lived in a Buchanan Drive perhaps I too can now claim allegiance to that clan. Facetious, I know, but I wonder how much more meaningful so many of these claims are?

**sirdaniel1975** · 12th August 08, 03:44 AM

Originally Posted by Phil

Has anyone noticed how many so called "septs" have appeared recently. Every week seems to bring a new crop. The Buchanan Society lists about 4 names as officially members of the clan (although a number of others have gracious permission to wear the tartan!) but if you look up other sites it appears every Tom, Dick & Harry can be a sept. I wonder if it is these surname distribution sites and if one happens to be in the rough area a clan once existed it automatically becomes a sept - and, of course, another valuable customer for that particular tartan. By the same token, as I once lived in a Buchanan Drive perhaps I too can now claim allegiance to that clan. Facetious, I know, but I wonder how much more meaningful so many of these claims are?

I can tell you I know of three clans that had their names outlawed: Gunn, MacFarlane, & MacGregor. Those members adopted other names in place of "the outlawed name." When this happened to clan Gunn, the chief used the name MacRob/Robson.. Many MacGregors adopted the name of Murray. I forget the name that was more common for the MacFarlanes. For the Gunn's, the name was outlawed by the Earl of Caithness in 1585 AD. The MacFarlane name was outlawed sometime in the 1600's (can't remember exact date). They were dispersed form their lands, and many went to Aberdeen either retaining the name MacFarlane or using another name.

What the clan societies are doing is adding nearly every popular variant spelling of names.

**Carolina Kiltman** · 12th August 08, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by sirdaniel1975

What the clan societies are doing is adding nearly every popular variant spelling of names.

I Just couldn't pass this one up! A century or so ago when I was starting to trace my Father's lineage, the local library offered a free course in genealogy. The first thing the instructor said was "Always remember. Spelling doesn't matter. If it sounds something like the name, it most likely is!" Since all Scots, at one time at least, spoke a form of Gaelic, the names, as we know them are transliterations into a foreign tongue (English). In addition, some gaels, upon coming to America, quite literally translated their names into English. "McShane"became "Johnson", to give just one example I am familiar with.

This what is happening here as we find more and more anglicized variants of the old names.

**actualrealproperscot** · 12th August 08, 08:28 AM

McShane, mcdonald, macgregor, campbell etc. are not gaelic spellings of these names they are english spellings.

MACGHRIOGAIR - Gaelic.
MACGREGOR - English.

**Panache** · 12th August 08, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by actualrealproperscot

...as I have said before clan societies are now clubs for people with last names, and I personally believe the vast majority of septs claiming to belong to a clan to be bollocks.

A "Clan Society" is different than a "Clan".

A Highland Clan were a group of people who were bonded by blood or location and allegiance to a Chief. They were governed by him and would fight for him when called on.

A Clan Society is a group of people who celebrate a shared interest in their heritage and history of their Clan. They are bonded by bloodlines, tradition, or interest.

There are many members of X Marks the Scot that are proud of their involvement with various Clan Societies. We have many conveners and even a few officers.

These clans promote history, genealogy, and traditional Scottish arts and activities. Without the Clan Societies and Scottish Societies there would be no Highland Games and a lot less interest in Scotland and her history.

I just wanted to make clear the difference and note that we should show respect to our fellow members of this society, the one we call X Marks the Scot.

To mock modern Clan Societies compared to the Highland Clans of old seems a bit unreasonable.

As for the concept that one ceases to be part of a clan because of geography, I think Robert Burns summed it up well when he wrote:

Wherever I wander
Wherever I rove
The hills of the Highlands
Forever I love

Respectfully

Jamie

**Phil** · 12th August 08, 09:17 AM

Well said Jamie. There is no call to belittle anyone's genuine interest in things Scottish. Just because there is so little interest in the whole clan thing here in Scotland we maybe tend to forget that for many others it is of great interest, much like the tremendous interest in genealogy. Everyone needs to belong and if being in a clan society fulfils that need then why should anyone disagree with that?

**macwilkin** · 12th August 08, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by Phil

Well said Jamie. There is no call to belittle anyone's genuine interest in things Scottish. Just because there is so little interest in the whole clan thing here in Scotland we maybe tend to forget that for many others it is of great interest, much like the tremendous interest in genealogy. Everyone needs to belong and if being in a clan society fulfils that need then why should anyone disagree with that?

Spot on, Phil.

Todd