Number vs. size of pleats

[TheKiltedCoder]

Hi, All,

I'm in the process of sewing a knife-pleated kilt

a la Barb's book. As I've gone through and done the math and marked things out, I've ended out with some oddish numbers for pleats that I thought I'd run past someone as a sanity check.

At this point, I'm looking at a total of 18" of pleats. ScotWeb gave me 8 metres of cloth, which, when you put everything together, gives a total of 33 pleats available.

Now, doing the math on this indicates that my pleat size at the waist will need to be 17/32", and 21/32" at the hips.

Do these sizes strike everyone as okay? I'm starting to think that I may want to knock out 4 or 5 pleats, to come up to something approaching 3/4" at the waist.

So, what does everyone else think? Is 17/32" too small a reveal for a knife pleat, or do I need to make things a bit bigger?

Thanks,

Brian

[The Wizard of BC]

The size of the pleat at the waist is far less important than the size of the pleat at the hip.

For the best looking kilt the pleat width at the hip should be somewhere between 1/2" and 1". You can go smaller and or larger depending on the Tartan, the size of the person and the amount of fabric you have, but 1/2" to 1" is a good starting point.

Just because you have 8 meters of fabric does not mean you must use every single inch of it. Design your kilt for the best look by doing up a couple of samples. Pin some pleats at a small size and then at a larger size and see which you like best.

I have much the same problem as you. I like number to four decimal places. So I keep reminding myself.

It's an art, not a science!!!!!!!

[Barb T]

17/32 is scarcely more than 1/2" at the waist. If you are making this for a guy (and not a female dancer, for example), I think you'll find that 1/2" at the waist is too small and you won't like the look of it. And 5/8" at the hips is, to my taste, too small as well. I try to aim for 3/4" or even a little more at the hips.

To be honest, I don't think I've ever put 33 pleats into a kilt. Most kilting tartan has big enough setts that 8 yards just doesn't have enough repeats for an average-sized guy to have more than 23-29 pleats in his kilt. I just made one with 31 pleats, but the person has 54" hips, and I needed more than 25" of pleats across the back and 9 yards of tartan (and it wasn't a particularly large sett).

Here, for example, is a kilt with 27 pleats for a man with 41" hips and a 36" waist. That makes the pleats a bit less than 5/8" at the waist and about 3/4" at the hips. I can't imagine what it would look like if I had had enough tartan to stuff another 6 pleats into this kilt and the pleats were smaller! It would just look odd. And your hips are a lot smaller!



So, personally, I would cut the # of pleats down.

BTW - what is the # of inches in the sett, and what's the weight of the tartan?

Oh - and the reason I said "and not for a female" above is that it's very common for the waist-hip differential to be large enough in a woman's kilt that the pleats at the waist are around 1/2" even though the pleats at the hips are over 3/4" or even over an inch. Can't be helped.

Also - I assume from the 18" that you need for the pleats that your hip measurement is about 35-36"?

[meinfs]

You (and I) have got some great advice from our experts. I don't think I can do better but here is my two cents.



Here's my secret:
One personal approach that I take -- for example, the one I used on my Stewart Gray kilt -- was to find a natural line (two lines) on the tartan to use as the edges of the pleat on both sides (or rather both edges) of the major stripe that I want to pleat it to. As long as this gives a pleat size of 1/2" to 1", and has the aesthetic look that you desire, then it'll be fine. [Needless to say, this approach is limited by the patterns in the tartan and the weight of the tartan fabric. We know that heavier version of the same tartan fabric will tend to have bigger setts and larger distances between lines; the lighter version of the same tartan will have smaller setts and closer lines).

[For me, it makes it much easier to see where I'm stitching (- along a line in the fabric).]

Having said that, you can then back-calculate the number of pleats. Instead of deciding at the start how many pleats you want, start with what pleat size you want. This also means that your pre-determined value of 18" of pleats *may* change. Like W_BC said, it's an art; so it doesn't have to be exactly 18" (it was determined subjectively to begin with anyway). And the tartan will have the final say! That is, it depends on the lines available in the tartan. It may not work as easily for some tartans.


So, now you have the pleat size that you like (this is at the hips!!), calculate the number of pleats that will fill your 18" (give or take). Then calculate the taper (per The Art of Kiltmaking).

Hope this helps.

[herminator]

What tartan is that??

Looks great!!

[Barb T]

One personal approach that I take was to find a natural line (two lines) on the tartan to use as the edges of the pleat on both sides (or rather both edges) of the major tripe that I want to pleat it to.

Just a quick note - this approach only works if you don't have any pleat taper. If the pleat has to taper at all toward the waist, you lose the edge stripes toward the top of the pleat, and it doesn't look very good.

Instead of deciding at the start how many pleats you want, start with what pleat size you want.

I absolutely agree with this. I never know how many pleats a kilt is going to have until I figure out where I want each pleat relative to the tartan sett and then lay it out and count how many pleats I have.

[TheKiltedCoder]

Thanks again to meinfs and to Barb for the comments. I'm certainly learning more and more about the whole process, and I'm really looking forward to finishing this.

One other quick question I'll throw out: with the original shaping of the left side of the overapron, there was more width in the shaping from waist to hip than there was in the first pleat. When I get home tonight, I'll redo the math on the pleats and see how things recalculate with a 7/8" pleat at the hip. However, if the shaping in the left side of the overapron is still wider than one pleat, what is the accepted method for dealing with it?

1) Widen the first pleat until I can stitch the entire distance to the fell?

2) Only stitch the part of the overapron that covers the first pleat to the first pleat?

3) Continue stitching the apron edge to the second pleat until I get to the fell line?

4) Somehow stretch or tilt the overapron so that the entire distance to the fell stays on the first pleat?

5) Stop and recalculate because this problem should never occur?

Thanks again for all the pointers, everyone!

Brian

[meinfs]

Just a quick note - this approach only works if you don't have any pleat taper. If the pleat has to taper at all toward the waist, you lose the edge stripes toward the top of the pleat, and it doesn't look very good.

Ooh. Yes, that is true. [If I can set the taper so that it covers the width of the particular edge so that there's a line all the way to the waist, I think it may work. Sometimes there's two edge lines in a tartan which make things easier. Sometimes there's no nearby edges to reference from. It all depends on the tartan.]

I see the point about the edge stripe or line disappearing as the pleat tapers to the waist --- a major stripe might look bare at the top. Although perhaps one might get away with if the tartan is a pretty one to begin with.

I think, the take home message for me personally, are:
-that I make sure that a line edge doesn't disappear in the taper, and
-that the tartan pattern is king and you adjust to it.


Also, you mentioned pleat sizes of no less than 1/2" also holds true at the waist. I never thought of it. So, a 1/2" pleat size at the hips may disappear to less than 1/2" if there's a large taper- which would not be desirable. This is excellent insight and advice. Luckily for me it's either the tapers have not really been large and in general, I prefer to pleat bigger than 1/2" at the waist anyway.

I absolutely agree with this. I never know how many pleats a kilt is going to have until I figure out where I want each pleat relative to the tartan sett and then lay it out and count how many pleats I have.

Thanks Barb. As a budding kiltmaker, I'm glad that some of my instincts are not too off the mark.

[TheKiltedCoder]

So, personally, I would cut the # of pleats down.

BTW - what is the # of inches in the sett, and what's the weight of the tartan?

Also - I assume from the 18" that you need for the pleats that your hip measurement is about 35-36"?

Hi, Barb,

Thanks for answering! This kilt is for me, with a 38 inch waist and 42 inch hips. Here are the calculations that I'd made. If anything isn't right (or is right but... odd.) please let me know. I'd welcome suggestions.

inches apron pleats
waist 38 20 18
hips 42 21 21

fell 7 1/4"

I'm a short, stocky guy.

The original tartan was 4 metres of double-width, giving me a bit less than 8 metres to work with. The sett is right at 6 1/2". It's 16 oz. wool from ScotWeb.

What it boils down to, at this point, is that I believe I'm going to make a mistake if I jump up and down on this poor kilt and try to jam every inch of that tartan into it. Assuming I go to a 1" reveal at the hips (with the current split), that would mean getting rid of 12 pleats, or about 1 yard of material. Since I'm working with two tartan halves at this point, I'd assume that I'd want to take 6 setts off of the end of the left half of the tartan, and 6 setts off of the beginning half of the right tartan. Does that sound right?

And, for those that know better and have done the math before, do the splits look right?

Thanks again for the comments, everyone!

Brian

[Barb T]

Hi, Barb,

Thanks for answering! This kilt is for me, with a 38 inch waist and 42 inch hips. Here are the calculations that I'd made. If anything isn't right (or is right but... odd.) please let me know. I'd welcome suggestions.

inches apron pleats
waist 38 20 18
hips 42 21 21

fell 7 1/4"

I'm a short, stocky guy.

The original tartan was 4 metres of double-width, giving me a bit less than 8 metres to work with. The sett is right at 6 1/2". It's 16 oz. wool from ScotWeb.

What it boils down to, at this point, is that I believe I'm going to make a mistake if I jump up and down on this poor kilt and try to jam every inch of that tartan into it. Assuming I go to a 1" reveal at the hips (with the current split), that would mean getting rid of 12 pleats, or about 1 yard of material. Since I'm working with two tartan halves at this point, I'd assume that I'd want to take 6 setts off of the end of the left half of the tartan, and 6 setts off of the beginning half of the right tartan. Does that sound right?

And, for those that know better and have done the math before, do the splits look right?

Thanks again for the comments, everyone!

Brian

The only miscalculation I see is that getting rid of 12 pleats x 6.5" set is actually over _2_yards less material. I think I'd compromise and aim for something between 3/4" and 1" in the reveal at the hip. For someone your size, 7/8" at the hips will be fine, and the pleats will still be reasonable at the waist.

Your splits are fine.

The join doesn't have to be in the middle of the back of the kilt. Just mark as many pleats as you can on the first half, even though the mid-back pleat won't be the last one you mark. Then mark the rest of the ones you need on the other half, mark the underapron, and then _don't cut the extra off until you're done pleating_. That way, if you make a mistake, you aren't in trouble. And you also wind up with a single larger piece at the end.

And, as a general comment, I do think that pleat size at the waist matters. You definitely don't want pleats less than 1/2" at the waist in any kilt, and, for a guy, I think that's the absolute lower limit and that pleats 1/2" at the waist really look to small on a guy.