St George`s day

[Peter C.]

The Welsh have no connection with a green dragon that I know of - it's Y Ddraig Goch (Red Dragon) not Y Ddraig Werdd.

I don't know of the 1950s experiment but I would think that being told you can fly a Union Flag including Wales in Wales but not in the rest if the Union could be seen as somewhat marginalising.

Those were the colours of a Welsh regiment in the British army with the green dragon. I also read about a gold dragon being used on someones flag in Wales. So maybe for national use it is just the red dragon?

Peter

[macwilkin]

Sorry Todd, what is vexillology? It is not in my dictionary.

And Grant, does that mean that the red dragon on a white background as suggested by an MP, could be put in the middle of the St Georges cross?

Peter

The study of flags and their symbolism.

T.

[Pleater]

I think I have seen a flag where the top left quarter diagonal stripes of the Union flag were replaced by the welsh flag.

I can't remember where or when - it could be decades ago now - or is my memory playing tricks on me?

Anne the Pleater

[ccga3359]

And Grant, does that mean that the red dragon on a white background as suggested by an MP, could be put in the middle of the St Georges cross?

By all means this would be allowed:



I'm wondering if this is the flag that MoR was refering to when he wrote:

As I mentioned in my post above, the government did experiment with placing the Welsh dragon in the centre of the Union flag in the 1950s, but abandoned it due to overwhelming public displeasure in Wales at the thought they were some how being "marginalized" within the United Kingdom.

[Peter C.]

Shame about the green dragon, I really liked that, but I could accept the red one on the white background. Maybe the displeasure in Wales was the suggestion that they could only fly it in Wales, as Trefor wrote earlier. I would find that upsetting as well.

Peter

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

By all means this would be allowed:



I'm wondering if this is the flag that MoR was refering to when he wrote:

No, the Union flag for use in Wales, and where appropriate in London, had a roundel in the centre with the Red Dragon on it.

As far as the flag above is concerned, I rather doubt it would be allowed as it violates two of the cardinal rules of heraldry:

1) It over emphasizes the important of Wales by placing it in the "honour point" of the flag. Wales is a principality within England, and principalities are heraldically inferior to kingdoms. Therefore you can not put the badge of a principality over the cross of the kingdom of which it is a constituent part.
2) It debruises St. George's Cross by "cutting out" its centre.

The Union flag represents just that: The Union of three kingdoms under a single parliament, just as the flag of the European Union represents all of the member states-- despite the fact that a star isn't added each time a new country is admitted to the Union.

[McClef]

Whereas I like the flag design I do have to agree (shock horror!) with most of MOR's comments.

A Red Dragon could only work if the flag was entirely redesigned so that all the crosses were replaced by symbols such as Harp for Northern Ireland, Thistle for Scotland, Lion for England etc etc in equal quarters and maybe with a Crown connecting them all in the middle.

That's probably too drastic a step in the minds of most people. If it really was unworkable to add the St David's Cross to the others in the current design then maybe the crosses could be shown as quarters with a Crown uniting them in the middle. My question to MOR is if this would be heraldically correct or not.

As to the EU flag - I wonder if anyone really likes it! I don't know of many who enthusiastically fly it. Until last week it was apparently only legal to show the EU flag on a vehicle registration plate and illegal to show any national flag at all. I have been breaking the law for some time as my current vehicle and my previous vehicle proudly showed the Red Dragon on the plates!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Whereas I like the flag design I do have to agree (shock horror!) with most of MOR's comments.

If it really was unworkable to add the St David's Cross to the others in the current design then maybe the crosses could be shown as quarters with a Crown uniting them in the middle. My question to MOR is if this would be heraldically correct or not.

Perfectly good heraldry, although I'm not sure that it would necessarily make for an attractive flag. Strictly speaking the quarters would fall thusly: (1) England; (2) Scotland; (3) Ireland; (4) Wales. This would have the visual effect of dividing the flag per pale (down the middle) with the result that when viewed from a distance or in adverse light conditions it would appear to be black and white, with the white nearest the flag pole.

To be effective a flag (like a coat of arms) ideally should be instantly recognizable under all conditions.

As to the EU flag - I wonder if anyone really likes it!

You can, sort of, blame the Irish. The original design was submitted by Gerald Slevin when he was Chief Herald of Ireland.

I don't know of many who enthusiastically fly it.

The same people who enthusiastically pay their road tax!

Until last week it was apparently only legal to show the EU flag on a vehicle registration plate and illegal to show any national flag at all. I have been breaking the law for some time as my current vehicle and my previous vehicle proudly showed the Red Dragon on the plates!

I know. In Ireland it was an MOT failure if you didn't have the Euro flag on your number plate! (I think that was reason #634 why I moved to America.)

The big problem could (and did) occur when motoring on the continent. The French police were notorious for seizing and impounding "foreign" cars with "improper" number plates. No EU sticker with your international code -- GB, IRL, etc.-- and you were looking at a potential dust up with Le Flics and a multi-thousand Euro dent in your bank balance.

[McClef]

Perfectly good heraldry, although I'm not sure that it would necessarily make for an attractive flag. Strictly speaking the quarters would fall thusly: (1) England; (2) Scotland; (3) Ireland; (4) Wales. This would have the visual effect of dividing the flag per pale (down the middle) with the result that when viewed from a distance or in adverse light conditions it would appear to be black and white, with the white nearest the flag pole.

To be effective a flag (like a coat of arms) ideally should be instantly recognizable under all conditions.

If one went by dates of union with England then Wales was first and therefore should be in the second quarter. I could not comment on how it would look at a distance without a working model though.

However you hang the Union Flag upside down (a distress signal) and how many would know the difference?

The big problem could (and did) occur when motoring on the continent. The French police were notorious for seizing and impounding "foreign" cars with "improper" number plates. No EU sticker with your international code -- GB, IRL, etc.-- and you were looking at a potential dust up with Le Flics and a multi-thousand Euro dent in your bank balance.

I drove my former car in France on Welsh plates a couple of years ago and had no problems whatsoever. As far as I am aware ÉCOSSE or CYM stickers were fine in any case.

[Peter C.]

I see a lot of distress signals over here with the union flag I think my wife is getting fed up with me pointing out the upside down union flags.

Peter