A Modern Scottish View of Clans (and Gathering)

[Deil the Yin]

I’m afraid I seem to be rather good at that and really must try to be more considerate of the sincerely held beliefs and aspirations of others when it comes to clans, heraldry and other matters Scottish.
In mitigation I would only say that I, and I believe a substantial majority of fellow Scots, have no connection with any so-called “clan” other than an awareness of their existence as historical entities which no longer exist in any meaningful way or with any significance whatsoever to society in the 21st century. The days are not so far off when Scottish people were feudally bound to landowners as vassals and such bondsmen as miners only had this hereditary serfdom lifted in the 19th century. In fact, feudalism generally in Scotland was only abolished as recently as 1974 and I, myself, was a vassal under this system, paying feu duty to a feudal superior for the pleasure of allowing me to occupy the house I had bought.
While this serfdom may come as a shock to some raised to the “land of the free” they should try to understand how it has shaped and coloured the views of those so recently released from their feudal shackles. In particular towards those who would still seek to “lord it” over their fellow man, who live by the trappings of feudal privilege such as lords, chiefs etc., and those who try to exercise a supposed superiority by the use of arcane mediaeval flummery. There was never really anything romantic about the clan system which only existed to perpetuate the privileges of a very few land-owning individuals by holding their many clansmen in abject servitude purely for their own selfish ends. And when these ends no longer required clansmen to till their fields, tend their cattle and spill their blood on their behalf they had little compunction in dispensing with them, frequently in the cruellest ways imaginable. This is how so many found themselves dispossessed, homeless and shipped off to the far corners of the world to face an unknown and uncertain future. It says much for their hard work and determination that they survived in such hostile places and that their descendants survive to this day. It says nothing for the clan system, however, and for those privileged chiefs and other landowners who cast them aside without a further thought. You may, perhaps, understand why I completely fail to understand how anyone would wish to perpetuate something that so completely failed its adherents in the past and has nothing to offer but a simplistic romanticism nowadays.
By all means join clan societies but do so in the knowledge of what they truly represent. That is all I ask.

I'm still rather fascinated with the state of land ownership in Scotland (is it the same in England?). I worked several stints on a sheep croft in Sutherland, and when the owner told me that she owned her house but not the land it sat on... I couldn't get my head around it! Apparently all the land that her village sat on belonged to some Lady Such-and-such (given to her as a birthday present). I imagine it's like having an absentee landlord, but if the landlord is also a slum lord you're really f'd. And it's even worse cause you OWN your house and caint just up and leave... I can certainly understand Phil's frustration and cynicism after having to deal with that in a day to day real life scenario. I've certainly had my share of slum landlords.

I've often wondered myself why the clan chiefs are still "revered" or given some sort of status in British society, since there were really only a handful that were titled nobles (if I understand that correctly?). Were they ever given status as "Peers of the Realm" (I thought that had been discussed some years ago)? It has seemed to me that (especially after the '45) those of the Scottish upper echelon who could gain from joining British society did so, abandoning their Gaelic roots while reshaping their Highland traditions into a British model. That's of course putting a bit of a negative slant on it, but I would also recognise that this could be interpreted as a sense of "survival" in an era of considerable social change, too- adapt or "die" (or immigrate).

Of course from my clan's standpoint, MacGregors have been more or less landless since before the '45, so there's no notion that we (the common clansmen) were disenfranchised by our chiefs (but rather by our kings, ironically enough). Obviously the opposite is true in at least a few other cases. But I can't help thinking that by-and-large the Highland Clan System was not based on a feudal order, being Gaelic/Celtic, and that the Clan chiefs (who were not always thus by birth) were not so raised above their clan as a titular lord might be. Maybe yall would consider that the romantic version, but I've certainly read of historical accounts from 18th century observers who, being from south of the border, were taken aback that their host the clan chief was casually conversing with the labourers in the fields or what might otherwise be called common clansmen.

I'm not quite sure what I was driving at there, but I certainly find the topic interesting. I have to say that I appreciate Phil's candour- not the usual pomp and circumstance we're used to!

[Phil]

I'm still rather fascinated with the state of land ownership in Scotland (is it the same in England?). I worked several stints on a sheep croft in Sutherland, and when the owner told me that she owned her house but not the land it sat on... I couldn't get my head around it! Apparently all the land that her village sat on belonged to some Lady Such-and-such (given to her as a birthday present). I imagine it's like having an absentee landlord, but if the landlord is also a slum lord you're really f'd. And it's even worse cause you OWN your house and caint just up and leave... I can certainly understand Phil's frustration and cynicism after having to deal with that in a day to day real life scenario. I've certainly had my share of slum landlords.

The "Lady Such-and-Such would be the Duchess of Sutherland who owns vast tracts there and whose forebears were responsible for some of the cruellest clearances in the Highlands. Even although people were able to buy land and build a house on it, they remained as feudal vassals to the feudal superior and had to pay an annual charge. Bettyhill in Sutherlansd was named after Elizabeth, Duchess of Sutherland and was one of the places displaced clansmen were relocated to from the glens to make way for sheep. As I said this mediaeval system persisted until the 1970's and if you wanted to make any changes to your house you had to go, cap in hand, to your "superior" for permission. Scotland has since progressed by abolishing this relic of feudalism (even though we had to pay off the superior) and we even have "right to roam" legislation where we can walk over any part of Scotland we wish. Communities can get together and buy their lands from these absentee landlords even if they don't want to sell and the iniquitous situation where wealthy individuals such as Lord Leverhulme could own whole islands such as Lewis and Harris and all the people on them is slowly being put right.

[gilmore]

...Even although people were able to buy land and build a house on it, they remained as feudal vassals to the feudal superior and had to pay an annual charge. Bettyhill in Sutherlansd was named after Elizabeth, Duchess of Sutherland and was one of the places displaced clansmen were relocated to from the glens to make way for sheep. As I said this mediaeval system persisted until the 1970's ... Scotland has since progressed by abolishing this relic of feudalism (even though we had to pay off the superior) ...

My understanding is that it lasted until The Abolition of Feudal Tenure, etc., (Scotland) Act of 2000 went into effect on November 28, 2004, and did away with several sorts of colorful ancient yet basically oppressive ways of owning land in Scotland.

[Kerr the Walker]

As I said this mediaeval system persisted until the 1970's and if you wanted to make any changes to your house you had to go, cap in hand, to your "superior" for permission.

Sounds a lot like an Home Owners Association to me to me!

[gilmore]

I'm still rather fascinated with the state of land ownership in Scotland (is it the same in England?). I worked several stints on a sheep croft in Sutherland, and when the owner told me that she owned her house but not the land it sat on... I couldn't get my head around it! Apparently all the land that her village sat on belonged to some Lady Such-and-such (given to her as a birthday present). I imagine it's like having an absentee landlord, but if the landlord is also a slum lord you're really f'd. And it's even worse cause you OWN your house and caint just up and leave... I can certainly understand Phil's frustration and cynicism after having to deal with that in a day to day real life scenario. I've certainly had my share of slum landlords.

That way of owning property isn't all that unusual. It happens in the US, even in your own state of Georgia, where Georgia Power Company owns the land around Lake Rabun in north Georgia, but allows some people to build and own houses on it.

I've often wondered myself why the clan chiefs are still "revered" or given some sort of status in British society, since there were really only a handful that were titled nobles (if I understand that correctly?). Were they ever given status as "Peers of the Realm" (I thought that had been discussed some years ago)? It has seemed to me that (especially after the '45) those of the Scottish upper echelon who could gain from joining British society did so, abandoning their Gaelic roots while reshaping their Highland traditions into a British model. That's of course putting a bit of a negative slant on it, but I would also recognise that this could be interpreted as a sense of "survival" in an era of considerable social change, too- adapt or "die" (or immigrate).

Of course from my clan's standpoint, MacGregors have been more or less landless since before the '45, so there's no notion that we (the common clansmen) were disenfranchised by our chiefs (but rather by our kings, ironically enough). Obviously the opposite is true in at least a few other cases. But I can't help thinking that by-and-large the Highland Clan System was not based on a feudal order, being Gaelic/Celtic, and that the Clan chiefs (who were not always thus by birth) were not so raised above their clan as a titular lord might be. Maybe yall would consider that the romantic version, but I've certainly read of historical accounts from 18th century observers who, being from south of the border, were taken aback that their host the clan chief was casually conversing with the labourers in the fields or what might otherwise be called common clansmen.

I'm not quite sure what I was driving at there, but I certainly find the topic interesting. I have to say that I appreciate Phil's candour- not the usual pomp and circumstance we're used to!

The clan system predated feudalism, and with the coming of the latter to Scotland was absorbed into it, with some chiefs being granted titles by the crown in the peerage of Scotland, and later in the peerages of Great Britain and the United Kingdom. And of England and Ireland as well.

Whatever prestige the chiefs now have is more a matter of custom, rather than political power arising out of the law, compared to ancient times, other than a few odds and ends left over in the Scottish legal system and mostly regulated by the Lyon Court.

[Wolfhawk]

That way of owning property isn't all that unusual. It happens in the US, even in your own state of Georgia, where Georgia Power Company owns the land around Lake Rabun in north Georgia, but allows some people to build and own houses on it.

The government is and has been, gathering land anywhere there is a possibility of flooding and then allow the the citizens to build there but not own the land. Then if the government decides that they are tired of someone living there, they can wait till the next disaster and 'claim' the land back. If a majority of the house or building has to be rebuild, this allows the government, who owns that land, to 'claim' it back. The City of Weatherford did that with lots of the land around Lake Weatherford.

[gilmore]

The government is and has been, gathering land anywhere there is a possibility of flooding and then allow the the citizens to build there but not own the land. Then if the government decides that they are tired of someone living there, they can wait till the next disaster and 'claim' the land back. If a majority of the house or building has to be rebuild, this allows the government, who owns that land, to 'claim' it back. The City of Weatherford did that with lots of the land around Lake Weatherford.

It's not that the government is and has been "gathering" land. The legal theory underpining land ownership in Anglo-Scottish-American real property law is that the government (or the Crown in the UK) already owns all the land within its boundaries, as well as everything underneath it and everything above it. What real property owners have is often described as a "bundle of rights" to the land granted by the government, no more and no less.

Real estate owners aren't sovereign entities with their own little countries. They are actually tenants of the government.

[Bugbear]

It's not that the government is and has been "gathering" land. The legal theory underpining land ownership in Anglo-Scottish-American real property law is that the government (or the Crown in the UK) already owns all the land within its boundaries, as well as everything underneath it and everything above it. What real property owners have is often described as a "bundle of rights" to the land granted by the government, no more and no less.

Real estate owners aren't sovereign entities with their own little countries. They are actually tenants of the government.

That bundle of rights, at least in America, is extremely important, along with the recognition of title and it's transfer through sale and inheritance, etc. But the government is supposed to defend and uphold those rights, so not that bad a deal lest you have to defend it yourself...

I don't know that all people have those same property rights in Scotland, and it appears that they did not in the past. I'm trying to be mild.

[SteveB]

This topic has wandered into many areas..

I am an American, a part of that "New World". I also live in a nation that is just shy of four hundred years of its beginnings as a colony of the Crown.
I am the president of two lineage societies here in the U.S. One is The National Society of Old Plymouth Colony Descendants. It is made up of those who can trace their ancestry back to someone who settled in Plymouth Colony whether voluntarily or otherwise. The second is the Piscataqua Pioneers, which are descendants of the settlers of the Piscataqua River valley, whether voluntarily or otherwise, before the colonies separated from the Crown. As Americans are a hodge podge of lineage in the great Melting Pot, many seek to understand where their roots came from. Our research takes us outside the boundaries of North America rather rapidly to some "Old Country".

I have a Highland Scot ancestor that was sold for 3 pounds, 3 shillings, 2 pence at York, Maine in the 1600's. I would hope someday to find out how close to Jock Scot is the home he was taken from. I also hope to be able to identify who he actually is and from what clan he was taken prisoner. The real history that I find in the documents of the victors paints a very different picture than most Americans have been given from the Victorian Era mythology. I hope to retire with enough life and energy to make as many trips to the United Kingdom as it takes to learn the truth. I do so with an open mind.

In chasing our ancestral roots, many who have possible Scot connections, look to the clan societies and the clan genealogist to help us further our understanding of those early ancestors. The clan societies need funds to pursue these endeavours. Some Americans fund this through the membership in multiple clan societies to further their genealogical quest. PLEASE NOTE, I stated clan societies. I did not say clan. The dues, to the clan society, is our way of paying for the resource. For this reason, I do pay dues to Clan Lamont, as I may find the patralineal link in their genealogical work.

I have documented the genealogy on my mother's side of the family back to a family MacNeil. It is through this research and that of the Clan MacNeil Association genealogist that I have established a blood line that goes back to Alba. We were definitely lackeys in the clan. I have no blood to a chief. As this is the only truly proven line to Alba, I will proudly wear the MacNeil tartan, pay the dues, and work my backside off at the clan tent at the New Hampshire Highland Games this September.

Phil,
With all of this in mind, I will not be at the Gathering. I do feel that it is more pomp and not much more in it that I can do from this side of the salt puddle.
I have cheerfully spent over 2,000 pounds on my Highland kit and related items of Scot origin. I will at some time in the near future, when my tutor says that I am ready, spend some thousand or more on my Highland Bagpipes.

The cultural traditions of Scotland are perceived by many Americans when observing pipe bands in parades and at celebrations, as well as any gent wearing the kilt. It is therefore incumbent on me when I put on my Highland kit and strike up the pipes, that I do so with respect and honour the cultural realm of today's Scotland. The inherent worth of my ancestors demands nothing less.

Slainte

[Bigkahuna]

This topic has wandered into many areas..

I am an American, a part of that "New World". I also live in a nation that is just shy of four hundred years of its beginnings as a colony of the Crown.
I am the president of two lineage societies here in the U.S. One is The National Society of Old Plymouth Colony Descendants. It is made up of those who can trace their ancestry back to someone who settled in Plymouth Colony whether voluntarily or otherwise. The second is the Piscataqua Pioneers, which are descendants of the settlers of the Piscataqua River valley, whether voluntarily or otherwise, before the colonies separated from the Crown. As Americans are a hodge podge of lineage in the great Melting Pot, many seek to understand where their roots came from. Our research takes us outside the boundaries of North America rather rapidly to some "Old Country".

I have a Highland Scot ancestor that was sold for 3 pounds, 3 shillings, 2 pence at York, Maine in the 1600's. I would hope someday to find out how close to Jock Scot is the home he was taken from. I also hope to be able to identify who he actually is and from what clan he was taken prisoner. The real history that I find in the documents of the victors paints a very different picture than most Americans have been given from the Victorian Era mythology. I hope to retire with enough life and energy to make as many trips to the United Kingdom as it takes to learn the truth. I do so with an open mind.

In chasing our ancestral roots, many who have possible Scot connections, look to the clan societies and the clan genealogist to help us further our understanding of those early ancestors. The clan societies need funds to pursue these endeavours. Some Americans fund this through the membership in multiple clan societies to further their genealogical quest. PLEASE NOTE, I stated clan societies. I did not say clan. The dues, to the clan society, is our way of paying for the resource. For this reason, I do pay dues to Clan Lamont, as I may find the patralineal link in their genealogical work.

I have documented the genealogy on my mother's side of the family back to a family MacNeil. It is through this research and that of the Clan MacNeil Association genealogist that I have established a blood line that goes back to Alba. We were definitely lackeys in the clan. I have no blood to a chief. As this is the only truly proven line to Alba, I will proudly wear the MacNeil tartan, pay the dues, and work my backside off at the clan tent at the New Hampshire Highland Games this September.

Phil,
With all of this in mind, I will not be at the Gathering. I do feel that it is more pomp and not much more in it that I can do from this side of the salt puddle.
I have cheerfully spent over 2,000 pounds on my Highland kit and related items of Scot origin. I will at some time in the near future, when my tutor says that I am ready, spend some thousand or more on my Highland Bagpipes.

The cultural traditions of Scotland are perceived by many Americans when observing pipe bands in parades and at celebrations, as well as any gent wearing the kilt. It is therefore incumbent on me when I put on my Highland kit and strike up the pipes, that I do so with respect and honour the cultural realm of today's Scotland. The inherent worth of my ancestors demands nothing less.

Slainte

:food-smiley-002:As a descendant of Eastern Woodlands First Nations I guess I could say my ancestors ate your ancestors.