Robertson Wolves !

[thescot]

May I add a correction to this thread?

They are not Clan Donnachaidh Arms, or Arms or Donnachaidh, they are Robertson Arms. They may wish to style themselves Donnachaidh but they are Robertsons.

. . .

I guess you are somewhat correct. they are not the arms of Clan Donnachaidh or Clan Robertson, if one prefers, they are the arms of the chief of Clan Donnachaidh.

I believe you are incorrect in other matters. Clan Donnachaidh, as the Standing Council of Clan Chiefs says the clan is "properly called," being Gaelic, is much older than the Robertson name. And, surnames were not a part of traditional clan practice until the English influence made it so, a long time after the clan was a clan. In fact, the standing council doesn't list a Clan Duncan at all.

So, to assert that Robertson is the name--and clan--as opposed to Donnachaidh or Duncan (with the implication that there is a different clan) seems to be incorrect. The common clan name--and chief's name--of Robertson is a result of Clan Donnacaidh's chief, whose name was Robert, capturing the murderer of the king.

The historic clan has been extant and well documented for quite some time--centuries in fact--and asserting that it and its chief are not the descendent of King Duncan is not really accurate, I think. It is certainly a rewrite of all the history I've read.

[Ancienne Alliance]

Do anyone have details, links that would inform us folks about the Reid sept on this clan ?

Thank you.


Robert:ootd:

[Sketraw]

I guess you are somewhat correct. they are not the arms of Clan Donnachaidh or Clan Robertson, if one prefers, they are the arms of the chief of Clan Donnachaidh.

Hi Jim, With respect, he is not chief of Clan Donnachaidh he is Chief of Clan Robertson who do indeed refer to themselves as Clan Donnachaidh. I bring your attention again to the extract from the Letters Patent (Grant of Arms) from the Court of the Lord Lyon of Langstane Robertson of Struan, the present chiefs father.

"Langstane Robertson of Struan styled Struan Robertson Chief of the name and head of Clan Robertson otherwise entitled Clan Donnachaidh"

It clearly states that he is Chief of the name of Robertson and Head of Clan Robertson who call themselves Donnachaidh, this can be verified via 'The Public Register of All Arms in Scotland' held at the Court of the Lord Lyon, Edinburgh. The Lord Lyon of Scotland is the font of all such matters regarding the law of arms and recognition of the Chiefly line.

It should also be noted, that no Duncan or Donachie armorial bearings from the Public Register of all Arms Scotland at Lyon Court bear any resemblance to Robertson armorial bearings. The earliest Duncan arms known and confirmed so far are from the Hague Roll and date from 1592. The Donachie arms are more recent and are that of territorial house of Donachie of Brockloch as are my own Duncan of Sketraw. If indeed Duncan was considered to be the same as Robertson the arms would be based on the Chiefly line aka Robertson, they are not.

I believe you are incorrect in other matters. Clan Donnachaidh, as the Standing Council of Clan Chiefs says the clan is "properly called," being Gaelic, is much older than the Robertson name. And, surnames were not a part of traditional clan practice until the English influence made it so, a long time after the clan was a clan. In fact, the standing council doesn't list a Clan Duncan at all.

The Standing Council of Chief's list Clan Robertson not Clan Donnachaidh, they do however mention the connection to Donnachaidh in the text and I would agree there is an historic connection to Donnachaidh as there is to Donald.

Although tradition claims that clan Donnachie descends from the Macdonalds, the Robertsons probably descend from Crinan, Lord of Atholl and hereditary Lay Abbot of Dunkeld. From Crinan sprang the royal house of Duncan I, King of Scots. The Robertsons are more properly called Clan Donnachaidh

As I said they may call themselves Clan Donnachaidh but the Clan is Robertson.

I would also make reference to the meeting of 1822 prior to the Gathering organised by Sir Walter Scot for King George IV in Edinburgh. The meeting held by the Robertsons and Stewarts was for to create 'The Men of Athol' there was no mention of Donnachaidh. In fact there wasn't even a Duncan mentioned or present at the meeting there was one Reid.

It wasn't until the the formation of the Clan Donnachaidh Society in 1893 that the Donnachaidh name was used to show a connection to the ancient name. We have William Forbes Skeens book of 1837 to thank for that in true Victorian romantacisim - I could go on go on Septs etc.

So, to assert that Robertson is the name--and clan--as opposed to Donnachaidh or Duncan (with the implication that there is a different clan) seems to be incorrect. The common clan name--and chief's name--of Robertson is a result of Clan Donnacaidh's chief, whose name was Robert, capturing the murderer of the king.

The historic clan has been extant and well documented for quite some time--centuries in fact--and asserting that it and its chief are not the descendent of King Duncan is not really accurate, I think. It is certainly a rewrite of all the history I've read.

You are quite correct there is no Clan Duncan at present but there is a Clan Duncan Society which aims to have a Chief recognised by the Lord Lyon, This does not detract that both names have an accepted ancient connection to Donnachaidh. As for the part about descending from Duncan I on the Clan Duncan Society, I would agree that this is not proven but the extract was adapted from the Clan Donnachaidh Society's own website.

Although this is highly unlikely that the Clan Duncan Society could find an individual with genealogical link to a Clan Donnachaidh Chief due to the absence of historical data at that time, there is provision at Lyon Court for recognition of new Chiefs or Clans that have had a Chief historically.

One such Clan that has gone through the process recently of the Derbhfine is Clan MacAulay you can read about the process of the derbhfine that they went through by Clicking Here This process was put in place by the Lyon act of 1672 and you can view it and the subsequent amendments by Clicking Here this will give you all the documentation on the holding of a Derbhfine and more.

The Clan Duncan Society has at present over 1,600 Duncans and associated spellings on the Roll Call who support the recognition of a Duncan Chief of the name.

[thescot]

OK. I see your point.

It just seems a bit of a stretch to say that ". . . Chief of the name and head of Clan Robertson otherwise entitled Clan Donnachaidh" doesn't mean that the terms "Clan Robertson" (English surname) and "Clan Donnachaidh" (Gaelic for children of Duncan) doesn't mean exactly that.

Personally, I have no problem with there being two clans reognized by the Lord Lyon--he gets to make the rules, kind of--and there are other groups that have become recognized as clans in their own right as well. Fact is, I don't really have a dog in the fight other than my own association with Clan Donnachaidh for several years and the accepted history.

I wish you well in your pursuits. Since my son is the product of a Robertson progeny--me--and a Duncan--his mother--he will one day have to decide which to support. As it is now, they're one and the same.

[Sketraw]

OK. I see your point.

It just seems a bit of a stretch to say that ". . . Chief of the name and head of Clan Robertson otherwise entitled Clan Donnachaidh" doesn't mean that the terms "Clan Robertson" (English surname) and "Clan Donnachaidh" (Gaelic for children of Duncan) doesn't mean exactly that.

Hi Jim, The letter patent being a legal document tend to be lengthy in explanation. It could also be that no one in the Lyon Office spoke Gaelic and thought that Robertson was the English translation of Donnachaidh. However as far as Letters Patent go it could mean, 'also known as or referred too'

I would also say if Clan Donnachaidh means 'children of Duncan' likewise, Clan Robertson would mean 'children of Robertson' I wold say the Robert(son) was more of Norman origin than English. Surnames being introduced to Scotland in the 12th - 13th century by the Normans.

I wish you well in your pursuits. Since my son is the product of a Robertson progeny--me--and a Duncan--his mother--he will one day have to decide which to support.

Thank you for your best wishes. Your son, could have the best of both worlds!

As it is now, they're one and the same.

Well we will agree to differ there.