1860's re-enactment in kilt.

[79thReproductions]

If you interested, I'd love to chat sometime about mid 19th century formal clothing A good impression of a well dress victorian "scoth" man is not too hard to do.

I think that a well researched anf carefully put together outfit would be darn handsome!

[jeremy j starche]

I dropped you a PM but also leaving a note here.

I would welcome a change to talk with you and get some ideas. I think from my research that I have a good sense of 'What to do' but not the 'How to do it' at least, not within my budget.

Please feel free to contact me.

[79thReproductions]

Yes sir, Got the PM! If you dont mind, discussing things here would help others out that might want to do this.

What exactly do you have in mind? What area of the country is your impression? Social class, age, profession ect. I think developing a structure to base your material impression on is a great start. (And costs nothing ;) )

The interesting thing about victorian clothing and especially ethnic Scottish atire during that era is that they were not perfect or very flattering. The jackets often had a loose fit, hats were worn with little care as to how they wore on the head (From the examples of 1860s images of Scots in New York), how their belts were worn, the size of their sporran ect.

I could go on about the outfits, but Ill just post a bunch! These are all from the Web site of the NY Caledonian Club that was founded in 1856









This next one is interesting. I believe that this man served in the 79th Highlanders. The hose, flashes, shoes and buckles are all text book 79th NY. The jacket looks fairly militant, different then most civilian ones I have seen though I cant say for certain.


The man in this picture is documented to have served in the 79th. Robert Clark served until 1862 if I remember right. The sporran he is wearing is that of the 79th. Great to see that even then, military men were wearing scottish civilian items with their uniforms...or visa versa ;)


Here are some pipers




Heres the basics, any input would be great!

• simple doublet,
• Tam o shanter (Correct? I dont remember if thats the name of the hat),
• box pleat kilt in a tartan available during the 1860s(Mr Newsome!)
• simple diced hose
• low rise "revolutionary war" shoes with simple buckles
• Wearing modern things like belts, simple dirks, should not be an issue.
• Horse hair sporran with real horse hair

On a budget, this can come together fairly easy. These things are available at most highland supply stores. Key items like the jacket can be modified by a jacket thats similar. Emulate some of the details that Victorian doublets have like the cuffs, the funky sporran cut out, button placement ect.

Over all, the best thing you can do is study how they wore their clothing and copy it. It makes a world of difference!

[DamnthePants]

Such very large feathers.... I like, and I want.

Or is that the type of thing you can only pull off when dressed to the nines; you know, so the other stuff balances it out?

[macwilkin]

Just an observation, but it should be pointed out that the majority of these gentlemen are members of the New York Caledonian Club, an immigrant organization in a large urban area.

Why is that important to note? We in the 21st century tend to forget that in mid-19th century America, most people didn't wear their ethnicity on their sleeves, so to speak, unless they lived in an area settled by immigrants and participated in immigrant social circles, such as the aforementioned Caledonian Club, the German Turnvereins or the Irish Ancient Order of Hibernians, not to mention ethnic parishes and congregations.

In my 10 years of reenacting, I saw more Irish impressions (generally with very bad brogues and uniforms covered in harps and shamrocks), yet the average Irish immigrant would have most likely avoided sticking out like a sore thumb, given the deep-seated bigotry of some White Anglo-Saxon Protestant Americans against "Hans and Paddy", unless he was among his own in an ethnic community or regiment, such as the 69th NY or the 116th PA.

In the 1850s, the American or "Know-Nothing" Party had a brief rise in popularity, campaigning on the Nativist ticket and opposing immigration, especially due to the large numbers of Roman Catholic Irish arriving in the US. Some Know-Nothing elements even opposed the 79th and its "foreign" uniform.

An immigrant away from an expat settlement such as Dogtown in St. Louis could find himself in a peck of trouble if he proclaimed too loudly if he was from the "ould sod".

Just something for folks to think about before putting together an immigrant impression. I've read one article that advised those wishing to do an Irish soldier in the ranks would do well to carry a rosary instead of wearing a harp badge! Perhaps all the Scottish immigrant would need (apart from someone in an ethnic unit like the 79th) is a copy of Burns in their haversack, as one of my relatives carried.

The photos, however, are fanastic, and I'd like to thank Rachel for posting them! Guid on ya!

Regards,

Todd

[79thReproductions]

Yes sir, all NY Cal. Club. I meant to say they were members but instead I said all the images were form their site.

In the mid to late 1850s, the scottish community in New York was very large. Yes, the New York Caledonian Club was an immigrant organization, but for the most part, the members were well off middle class. A great example of their wealth is the 79th. Their uniforms were very expensive and bought privatly by members. Their jacket cost $7.75 when a Pvt in the U.S. Army made $13 a month.

The Col of the 79th that first lead them into the field (James Cameron) was the brother of the secretary of war. (Simon Cameron) Thats just one political connection the Scottish community had in politics.

I don't think the scots in NY were ashamed or hid their ethnic heritage as much as we are lead to believe.

They held public Highland games as early as the late 50s with advirtisments in Harpers Weekly. They raised militias that even when warned about ethnic dress (Kilts) went through with wearing them and were praised for it in antebellum patriotic parades. Lincoln himself enjoyed bagpipes.

Most of these images are from the NY Cal Club of the NY Cal Club





79th New York marching in the 4th of July parade in New York City- 1860


I dont know when this parade was but it sure is the NYC Club!








More pipers!




I dont know much about the Irish. I think Todd has great insight into their culture during that time!

[jeremy j starche]

Todd, I am aware of the anti-Irish feelings that rolled through this country and no doubt an Irish immigrant would have quickly learned to hide his status and blend in. In my reading, I haven't found any reference to the Scots being subject to the same treatment. Perhaps because they were far less likely to be papists?

Seems that a good number of those with Scots heritage were shipped over as indenured servants, often for wearing the tartan or other violation of the Clearing Acts. From my understanding of history, these were the people who held onto their traditions, often stronger than people back in the old country.

[79thReproductions]

Is your heart set on a tweed jacket? A dark solid jacket would be best, but you could get by with what you want.

Hose..... Go diced! Please for the love of the Victorian fashion gods! :]

I have never seen an casual Victorian kilted outfit. Im sure the existed though. These people were dressing for the camera. Imagine it would be the jacket, undershirt, kilt, sporran, hose shoes ect. None of th belts and plaids.

I have no evidence to support this, its just a guess I have having worn very traditional highland clothing and then wanting to take some things off to be "casual" around the camp fire ect.

For the shoes, I think of a loafer type shoe.

[jeremy j starche]

No, I'd not say my heart is set on a tweed jacket. I only choose to look for that because the various conversion threads indicate that tweed is more forgiving of my skill-level of sewing than other fabrics.

As for the diced hose .. yea .. yea .. I know ... I know .. I'll do it. But they'll only come out of the drawer for re-enactments.

Likewise, when I can afford the horse-hair sporran... Just need to make sure that it doesn't hang lower than my kilt does.

Its my understanding that no-one, at least not stateside, was outdoors in just a shirt but always had a vest, jacket or both.

Then we have ties, cravats and gloves. The gloves, at least, I think I can skip as a piper. I've heard of people piping in gloves, but until the Mythbusters take it on, it didn't happen. ;]

[macwilkin]

Todd, I am aware of the anti-Irish feelings that rolled through this country and no doubt an Irish immigrant would have quickly learned to hide his status and blend in. In my reading, I haven't found any reference to the Scots being subject to the same treatment. Perhaps because they were far less likely to be papists?

A very good point, Jeremy -- Fernec Szasz raises it as well in Scots in the North American West that the Scots, being Protestant and easily assimilated compared to the "Green" Irish were not as often victims of nativism.

I don't think the scots in NY were ashamed or hid their ethnic heritage as much as we are lead to believe.

Rachel, I never said that immigrants were necessarily ashamed of their heritage (although some immigrants did assimilate to American society quicker than others) -- my point was that in a large urban area such as NYC or Chicago, as you say, the Scots or any other immigrant group would most likely not hide their heritage -- safety in numbers. But in other areas of the country where "native" Americans were in the majority, caution would be the better part of valour. There is an excellent book about Irish & German immigrants in the 1850s in the Mississippi River Valley that documents many clashes between "Hans & Paddy" and their native neighbors.

By the 1870's, nativism against Northern & Eastern European immigrants was subsiding, as more immigrants from Southern and Eastern Europe began to come in as unskilled labor for the rising industrial sector.

Based on some of the fashions in those photos (which are excellent, btw!), I would say they are post-war. The two fellows in bowlers would tend to suggest they were taken in the 1870s-80s, but don't quote me on that.

Great discussion!

Todd