Interesting article about Clan Gunn...

[beloitpiper]

I suppose that once one becomes a chief one automatically becomes a member of "the upper crust", no matter what one's status before acceding to being "the representer of his race".

Actually, most of the chiefs are working stiffs; there are a few exceptions, but most (titled or not) are wage slaves, just like the rest of you.

Really? Wow, did not know that. I know my chief (of Gordon) has his own whisky.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

It will be interesting to see how this falls...at least this man has mentioned, he will put it to the clan to decide.. It sounds like a reasonable thing to do.. If the geneology, and the clan wills it, so be it.... but if anothers lineage is more closer to the source... then...

Who, exactly, is the "CLAN"? There are more than 1,000,000 Macdonalds scattered around the world-- who amongst them would vote in a "clan plebiscite"? Only the armigers? Where would the election be held? In Scotland? It's because the "clan" is a legal species of heritable property that disputes to the chiefship are adjudicated in the Court of the Lord Lyon.

His decision isn't based on a popularity poll, or some notion of who is best suited to be the chief, but rather on the discovery of who is the person rightfully entitled to inherit that species of property known as "a clan". Once that decision is made, Lyon invests that person with the "deeds" to the clan he represents-- ie: the undifferenced arms of the clan chief.

[dfmacliam]

As I stated in my posting, it would be primarily based on the geneological evidence and the secondary to this would be if he presented his case to the clan and the clan supported his "application" to the Lord Lyon.
Now how would this election take place? I would not neccessarily call it an election, but a general consensus to his application.... All roads must be through the Lyon Court, which under a fair consideration, made by the facts presented.. Granted the application is only speculation and I have no support, one way or another, other than an interest of watching the events unfold, and the results, whatever they may be..

[macwilkin]

Our own Sketraw has a very interesting article on the custom of the Derbhfine on the Clan Duncan Society web site:

http://www.clan-duncan.co.uk/clan-re...derbhfine.html

Aye,

Todd

[gilmore]

This article seems to be a bit misinformed, from what I recall of the situation. The last I heard, there were three claimants, two in the UK, but the one with the best claim was said to be an American who wasn't interested in pursuing it.

The chiefdom hasn't been vacant for over 200 years. It went vacant in the late 19th century.

Also, is it Debrett's or Burke's that has lost credibility as to its accuracy under its current ownership?

[sirdaniel1975]

Great to hear.. hopefully it will work out this time. They've been down this road on and off over the past 30 something years.

-in 1978, 5 claimants came forward

-The original five claimants were, in order of descent from the last Mackeamish:

1. Robert Kamp of Rotterdam, the Netherlands.
2. Michael J. Gunn of Wick.
3. Dr. Alexander Nichols Gunn II, of Los Angeles, CA.
4. Jack Alexander Gunn of Australia.
5. Iain A. Gunn of Banniskirk, Commander of The Clan Gunn.

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-only Robert Kamp & Michael Gunn filed petitions to the court to further the matter

-Dr. Alexander Gunn was actually the closest male heir, but he decided to join the Clan Gunn Society UK and visit Scotland instead, he lost interest in the matter


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-?By judgment dated 22 February 2002, Lyon wrote that ?the succession would have passed to....William Sinclair Gunn born 4 January 1943.? William Sinclair Gunn, my second cousin, had resigned all his rights in the chiefship irredeemably to me on 11 January 1991. However, Lyon considered that the resignation was ineffective as he considered that William could not resign the chiefship until he had first been confirmed as Chief. It was necessary for William to Petition for the Plain undifferenced Arms of Gunn, and be represented by a separate lawyer.


by Lin Robinson

[sirdaniel1975]

This article seems to be a bit misinformed, from what I recall of the situation. The last I heard, there were three claimants, two in the UK, but the one with the best claim was said to be an American who wasn't interested in pursuing it.

The chiefdom hasn't been vacant for over 200 years. It went vacant in the late 19th century.

Also, is it Debrett's or Burke's that has lost credibility as to its accuracy under its current ownership?

Are you referring to George Gunn of Rhives? He was not recognized by the Lord Lyon and he was appointed by the 'Countess of Sutherland.' They are the two (the Countess and George) most directly responsible for clearing the Gunss and Sutherlands of Kildonan in 1819.

-1800 the Countess of Sutherland was looking for a chief of the Gunn's to Recognize and Promote in recognition of the ancient service to her house

-the Countess then realized that the Gunn's were a part of the Refactory tenants when the Sutherland estate's removal policy reached their Glen(which means there really was no chief, the real last chief died in Gibraltar as part of the Royal Scots)
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the Countess purchased a Commission in the Royal Marines for George Gunn. At the end of it in 1814 is when the Countess named George chief.

-the Countess rewarded him the lands in Rhives, hence the Gunn of Rhives title , but legally he was not chief
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-the affiliation with the Countess during the time of clearances didn't go well for his legal claim for the chiefship, the people of Strath & Kildonan blamed the Countess and her affiliates

-in 1819 the entire Glen of the Gunn's was cleared, six tenants remained, non were Gunn's

-the clan was gone, landless, chief-less. clansmen were to be found around the world in Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, & North America. Those that stayed lived on the coasts in Caithness & Sutherland
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the death of George Gunn of Rhives in 1859(1874?)

by Lin Robinson

[macwilkin]

Thank you for sharing Lin's comments about this current situation. I should have e-mailed Lin and asked him about it before I posted.

Yours aye,

Todd