Sgian Dubh and the Church

[wildrover]

Hilarious!

I s'pose, were your small knife challenged, you could pop back to the kitchen and borrow a bread knife to stick down your sock!

My pocket knife goes everywhere with me. Usually it's strapped to my gym bag, sometimes it's on my belt, it comes with me to work every day, my boss does the same...if anyone ever asked about a sgian, I'd just tell 'em it's a pocket knife, and the appropriate place to wear it is in my sock . That's just the plain truth of it...

There's no accounting for people who are easily offended, or walk through life in a cloud of paranoia. IIWY, I'd keep my pocket knife close in church like I do any other time of day...maybe take the nice one rather than the beat up one...but I bet most don't care, and the one who speaks up probably speaks up about everything else under the sun . A man should never be without a sturdy pocket knife! Wear it if you want to wear it, or don't, if you don't feel it appropriate.

-Sean

[fluter]

Don't tell our vicar the poor fellow would have a heart attack!

Fortunately for my conscience, our kitchen is sometimes used for feeding the poor, as well as feeding the already well-upholstered.

Mind you "our" churches are, on the whole, several centuries older than "yours". I bet you even have heating that works in "yours"!

Let's say "heating that sometimes works." Our church building is one of the older ones in the neighborhood---but recall that the US is characterized as a place where a hundred years is a long time. We were surveying for a little fix-up, and discovered that the roof was likely to fall in at any time. So, for a period of up to a couple of years, we will be worshipping in the gym. Yes, Jock; that's what I said. Please don't tell the vicar.

[EagleJCS]

Good L.., er, I mean good gracious me. Do churches have kitchens?

I would say MOST churches do have a kitchen on the grounds somewhere close by. Some denominations have built 'fellowship halls' (there are other names used in different areas) that connect to their sanctuaries in one way or another - below, behind, beside, rarely above. I doubt you'd find many worship spaces that have the kitchen/fellowship area in the same location. Some churches have schools, which then need a cafeteria to feed the children. Otherwise they probably wouldn't have a kitchen.

There are some small country churches in this region that are just the sanctuary and nothing else. (Even the pastor doesn't live on/near the church).

Now, as to wearing a knife to services - I've done it on occasion as a Scout (folding/utility knife in a belt pouch). I've never had occasion to use a fixed blade knife as a Scout, so I don't wear one. I haven't been to church wearing my kilt, but I probably wouldn't wear my sgian dhu because I know the community and the congregation (most folks 'round here don't wear a kilt very often). I really don't know how it (a knife) would be perceived, but I'd prefer to avoid the controversy - the kilt would raise enough of a stir.

[Phil]

I have to say here that the sgian dhubh was not designed ever to be something to peel an apple, sharpen a pencil with or help with manicuring. It was carried secretely as a weapon of last resort to kill in the event that other weapons were taken away and was not designed in a modern peaceful society where we all respect each others life and liberty. If someone disarmed you and was about to kill you you pulled out your sgian dubh and stuck them - and hoped that was an end of them. Not a nice scenario but then life in those days wasn't. Highland dress contains many such hangovers of less civilised times, dirks, swords, pistols etc. but the only one to remain generally is the sgian dhubh.
As I understand it the Christian faith, and I believe other monotheistic religions, have as part of their fundamental belief the view that "thou shalt not kill" and therefore to carry a weapon designed to do just such a thing must fly in the face of the belief being followed in a place of worship.

[BoldHighlander]

As I understand it the Christian faith, and I believe other monotheistic religions, have as part of their fundamental belief the view that "thou shalt not kill" and therefore to carry a weapon designed to do just such a thing must fly in the face of the belief being followed in a place of worship.

This could skate dangerously close to the edge of the rules, but in the old Hebrew text it actually said "Thou shalt not commit murder". Anyhoo....

I recall the busy body who once confronted me about my sleeved tattoos, saying "you know what it says in the Bible about tattoos don't you?" My reply was "yes, and that's between God & I, isn't it?"

[wildrover]

Now, as to wearing a knife to services - I've done it on occasion as a Scout (folding/utility knife in a belt pouch). I've never had occasion to use a fixed blade knife as a Scout, so I don't wear one.

That's interesting you say that...I remember an old Scoutmaster of mine having quite a prejudice against fixed-blade knives...took a few of us to task for it, as I recall...but to this day I can't figure out why it was such a big deal . Other than the consideration for space, they're about the same when a folder is opened...and for that matter, my Schrade is larger than most sgians, when open...with a clip-point it more resembles a hunting knife, and has no end of utility. I'd get the same use from a small fixed-blade and have my eye on a couple which I'd stick down my sock...very utilitarian, very well-crafted little things...small drop points, and a couple clip points, 2" to 4" blades, rounded out for fingers, some with a small guard, others very sleek. Nice stuff...not the usual sgian I know, but then I guess I don't favor the "traditional" shape of them, and I use my knives for various knife things...I suppose I could stick a pair of scissors down my sock, but it wouldn't be quite the same ...wouldn't do that any more than I'd cram a Bowie down my hose (or wear it to church).

...Tho it'd make for a funny picture, I s'pose...

Phil, I think I'll tell 'em the other story!

I know the original question was "should I wear it in church", but I'm getting a very interesting general sense of how it's perceived, and how it's presented, regardless of location.

Whaddaya bet, if you're a respected, known, mature, courteous member of your congregation, nobody bats an eye?

-Sean

[JRB]

I have to say here that the sgian dhubh was not designed ever to be something to peel an apple, sharpen a pencil with or help with manicuring. It was carried secretely as a weapon of last resort to kill in the event that other weapons were taken away and was not designed in a modern peaceful society where we all respect each others life and liberty. If someone disarmed you and was about to kill you you pulled out your sgian dubh and stuck them - and hoped that was an end of them. Not a nice scenario but then life in those days wasn't. Highland dress contains many such hangovers of less civilised times, dirks, swords, pistols etc. but the only one to remain generally is the sgian dhubh.
As I understand it the Christian faith, and I believe other monotheistic religions, have as part of their fundamental belief the view that "thou shalt not kill" and therefore to carry a weapon designed to do just such a thing must fly in the face of the belief being followed in a place of worship.

Actually, the sgian dubh almost certainly evolved from the sgian achlais, or armpit knife, as a short utility and knife. Knives of it's type were caried by all manner of people from serfs to royalty from antiquity to modern times all over the British isles and Europe. I'm sure it was employed as a last resort weapon on more than one occassion (part of it's utility) but that was not it's only or primary purpose. If it were purely a weapon and nothing else it would have much more likely evolved into a double edged blade.

[bigdad1]

Mind you "our"churches are, on the whole, several centuries older than "yours". I bet you even have heating that works in "yours"!

Yes most of our churches do have heat. We are a very progressive society. However the religion practiced in those churches isn't any older in Scotland that it is here in heathen land. Nor is the basic requirement of the golden rule. I take that to mean that if your sock knife upsets people you should divest yourself of it just as you would hope (expect?) that someone else would respect your fears or apprehensions. Ultimately it isn't whether you can wear a knife in church but whether you should respect your fellow man. It doesn't matter if the "black knife" story is myth or fact. It matters that sometimes we must put our own egos (and if dressing in a kilt isn't ego) aside and just plain be nice to people. In my not so humble opinion that is the bottom line and how I would approach it.

[Panache]

It matters that sometimes we must put our own egos (and if dressing in a kilt isn't ego) aside and just plain be nice to people. In my not so humble opinion that is the bottom line and how I would approach it.

The sgian dubh is a part of highland attire, but in truth it is the least important part of it (in my opinion).

It isn't all that noticeable whether present or not

Now I am the last person anyone would call meek or mild. But taking this bit of metal out of my sock is really very little skin off my nose.

I am not really a church goer

But I have been honored when my friends have asked me to join them at a service.

The thing that has struck me most about all of them, regardless of denomination is the sense of community.

Maybe this is just my opinion but it seems to me that people attend church to both experience and celebrate the divine as well as bond with their community.

So when I, an outsider, is invited to join this group I do so.

I choose to share this experience and I dress and act in a way that shows respect to that community.

And I am the better for this experience.

I have a huge sense of self but somehow church has never seemed quite the place to stress individuality.

Just my thoughts

Cheers

Jamie :ootd:

[bchunter]

I am a very regular church-goer, and wear a kilt on occasion. At first I did not sport a sgian and was very often asked why I was not wearing one. When I started wearing one, I had one fellow question why I had it, only to have his question answered by another fellow in a suit that produced a folding pocket knife that dwarfed my sgian and proclaiming he always carried it and a sgian was no different. No one else ever asked, but I do get questions when in a business suit why I'm not kilted.