Kilts... Napoleonic Period...?

[Bigkahuna]

I thank you sir! That is exactly my point. A comment was made implying that the 93rd lost Chalmette because they were wearing trews. While that was most likely an attempt at humour, I simply wanted to point out that the 93rd performed honorably that day and held the line as long as they could. I never claimed that the 93rd "won" New Orleans, just that they (the 93rd) certainly didn't lose it for the British.

T.

No attempt at humor my good sir. Simply pointing out that in every other engagement in which they were kilted, they ended up victorious. They change to breeks and have a different outcome.

[Lachlan09]

I would re-iterate that according to military author and WY Carman, who was curator of the National Army Museum, the plaid and kilt were two separate items (not a fly plaid) in the 1790's/early 1800's and the kilt alone was worn for normal duties, without the plaid. For formal occasions, the triangular plaid was worn too and fastened at shoulder and round the waist to imitate overall a belted plaid. So a box-pleated kilt is perfectly feasible. It also makes perfect sense considering the upsurge of Highland regiments (many of which later disbanded) in the French revolutionary /Directory/Consulate/early empire war and running dry of genuine Highlanders to fill the ranks from day one, necessitating recruiting a majority of non-Highland personnel for most regiments. The first stage was this hybrid plaid/kilt/false belted plaid dress, then in 1809 the loss of Highland dress altogether for at least 5 Highland regiments (72nd, 73rd, 74th, 75th and 91st), 6 if you included the 71st (converted to H.L.I.). As it was officially put, Highland dress was “found objectionable to the inhabitants of South Britain”.

[macwilkin]

No attempt at humor my good sir. Simply pointing out that in every other engagement in which they were kilted, they ended up victorious. They change to breeks and have a different outcome.

Again, the 93rd did better than many of the other British units deployed that day. I don't think I buy your theory.

T.

[Lachlan09]

The imitation belted plaid idea was withdrawn in 1810 (after those luckless Highland regiments had been de-kilted) and the fly plaid introduced instead, just hanging off the shoulder. The fly-plaid is also seen in the 79th's portrait of 1852.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

A couple of facts.

The earliest surviving box pleated kilt for which we have documentation is a Gordon Highlander's kilt, c. 1796. I believe this is the one you mentioned. It is made of hard tartan, with the yellow stripe woven in silk. The pleats are sewn down on the inside and outside (there is no lining). It is 25" in length, being made selvedge to selvedge. It contains exactly 3 yards and 2 inches of cloth. There is no taper from waist to hips. Self fringe on both aprons. It has 21 box pleats, which is a large number, but it is pleated to the yellow line, and the tartan has a rather small sett repeat. (In it's 25" length there are six half-repeats -- remember this is the Gordon tartan, based on the black watch, so there are two occurances of the yellow stripe every full repeat).

There are photographs of this kilt in All About Your Kilt by Bob Martin, which I reccomend to you as a resource.

Among the other kilts documented in this reference, there is a Seaforth kilt (78th Highlanders) c. 1796-1800. It's an officer's kilt. Again, the white stripe is woven in silk. No taper. The length is 25" and it's made selvedge to selvedge. This one has 3 yards, 29 inches, and is made into 16 box pleats (to the white stripe).

The first military regiment to switch over to knife pleats for their kilts were the Gordons, in 1854.

[OC Richard]

Thanks Matt!

so the tartan was woven 25" wide, not 27" as Reid claims.

So the Gordons switched to knife pleats in 1854...when did the Black Watch switch?

At that time only the 42nd, 78th, 79th, 92nd, and 93rd were kilted, and of those only the 42nd and 92nd made that switch, I believe.

What's so odd about military kilts, to me, is the way that the amount of tartan used in them burgeoned as the 19th century progressed. In some book the author gives the supposed dates when ORs kilts were increased from 4 to 6 and then to 8 yards. By WWI the military kilts were absurdly heavy. Why? What possible purpose is served having yards and yards of fabric bunched up on your backside, and the front panels remaining the same?

[Lachlan09]

I only surmise here, but the switch over from hard to soft tartan around 1872 was possibly a factor in kilts getting heavier. I also suspect that the incresed pleating made kilts heavier and also the kudos of a group of Victorian Highlanders swinging by in the kilt was a big plus and heavier kilt meant better swing.

[Bigkahuna]

Again, the 93rd did better than many of the other British units deployed that day. I don't think I buy your theory.

T.

I am not proposing a theory, only stating a fact. If I was proposing a theory, I could say something like the 93rd would have swept the American forces from the field if they had the power of the kilt on their side that day. But I didn't say that.

[macwilkin]

I am not proposing a theory, only stating a fact. If I was proposing a theory, I could say something like the 93rd would have swept the American forces from the field if they had the power of the kilt on their side that day. But I didn't say that.

Sounds like a theory to me.

You're not taking into account that the 93rd was only one unit of many in the British forces that day at Chalmette, and that a number of factors caused the British defeat at New Orleans, such as the aforementioned scaling ladders forgotten by the 44th Regiment of Foot that morning. By this logic, the 74th Regiment should not have been victorious at Seringgapatam & Assaye in India because they were not in kilts, but in breeks due to the tropical climate.

T.

[Bigkahuna]

The exploits of the 74th or the entire British Army have no bearing on what I said. I said that up until the Battle of New Orleans/Chalmette, every engagement the 93rd had been in whilst kilted had ended with them on the victorious side. At New Orleans/Chalmette, same army, same regiment. No Kilts. Make of that what you will.