Scottish heraldic flavor

[davidlpope]

If you can prove that you are of Scottish descent, why don't you just petition the Lord Lyon for arms? It would seem to me that a substantive (ie: real) coat of arms would be more desirable than something made up on your kitchen table.

I've recently looked into this and it may be more difficult than first appears. I can document Scottish descent, but am not eligible for a grant of Scottish arms. One must be directly descended in the male/ surname-bearing line and have solid documentation to prove it. For those whose ancestors recently immigrated, this works out quite well. For those of us whose ancestors came over very early, solid documentation can be a problem. Likewise, for those of us in the US who bear English-descended surnames, etc., the Lord Lyon has no jurisdiction, as I understand it.


Cordially,

David

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I've recently looked into this and it may be more difficult than first appears. I can document Scottish descent, but am not eligible for a grant of Scottish arms. One must be directly descended in the male/ surname-bearing line and have solid documentation to prove it. For those whose ancestors recently immigrated, this works out quite well. For those of us whose ancestors came over very early, solid documentation can be a problem. Likewise, for those of us in the US who bear English-descended surnames, etc., the Lord Lyon has no jurisdiction, as I understand it.

Broadly speaking you are correct. Lyon will only grant to those persons who bear the same surname as their closest Scottish born ancestor. There may be ways around this (each case is weighed on its own merits) but it can be very difficult to claim arms through female descent.

However, all is not lost. For persons of Scottish (or Irish or English) ancestry in the USA who do not otherwise qualify for arms in one of the above listed jurisdictions, the best option is to apply to the Bureau of Heraldry in South Africa for a grant of arms.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Lord Lyon can and does make what are known as posthumous grants of arms to the ancestors of Americans who were either born or were living in America prior to the Revolutionary War.

This is a common misconception on two counts. First, there is no such thing as a "posthumous" grants. Grants can only be made to living people, not imposed on the dead. Second, while the grant is based on descent from an ancestor born in Scotland, there is no "time limit" imposed. If your grandfather was born in Scotland in 1900, moved to the USA in 1925, and died in 1972, and you were born there in 1980, you could petition Lyon for a grant based on your grandfather's Scottish birth. These grants are in the nature of a "family memorial" and all descendants of the Scottish ancestor mentioned in the grant are entitled to sue out arms based on their genealogical relationship to all of the other known descendants of the ancestor.

What is required in each instance is legal proof of your exact relationship to the Scottish born ancestor. Sometimes this is very difficult to do, especially in North America when a family may have been settled there for several centuries, and record keeping may not have been as precise as some would like. That said, most heraldic authorities will accept "memorial proof"-- things like tombstones and family bibles, as well as the "balance of probability", if that is within legal reasoning.

If one simply can't prove a Scottish ancestor, then there is no point in beating your head against the wall. In Canada the option is to seek out arms from the Chief Herald of Canada, and in the United States (and elsewhere) to apply to the Bureau of Heraldry in South Africa.

Aside from their genealogical and emotional value, there is nothing special about Scottish arms-- they have no greater (or lesser) standing than the substantive arms granted by any other governmental body. Honorary arms (which include devisals of arms), or those which are "self-assumed", on the other hand, have no such standing and are regarded merely as examples (both good and bad) of heraldic designs.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

If it is a common misconception, then it is one perpetuated by the office of Lyon Court itself, as I was told that I could apply for a grant of arms to my (long since dead) ancestor who was a subject of the British Crown, and have the arms then matriculated down to me. It was never suggested by the office of Lyon Court that I (as a 7th generation American citizen) could simply apply for a grant of arms to myself by proving my descent from my Scottish ancestor. The grant would have to be first made to the ancestor who was a subject of the British Crown, and then I would have to be matriculated as his descendant - a process that could be done in a single document, provided I was able to come up with sufficent proof (i.e. historical documentation that each intervening generation was the direct descendant of the previous generation spelled out clearly in no uncertain terms - such as birth certificates, marriage certificates, or other legally recognized documents).

This is the same level of proof required of someone applying for arms based on the fact that his grandfather (or father) was born in Scotland. The only difference is the amount of paperwork required with each additional generation. I can sympathize with your frustration at not being able to connect all the dots. But again, let me suggest that if a substantive coat of arms is of importance to you, that you consider applying to the South African Bureau of Heraldry.

[Lachlan09]

May I ask in general, in this day and age, what purpose is there in ordinary individuals getting their own coat of arms ?

[macwilkin]

May I ask in general, in this day and age, what purpose is there in ordinary individuals getting their own coat of arms ?

Oh dear...here we go again. ;-)

T.

[JSFMACLJR]

May I ask in general, in this day and age, what purpose is there in ordinary individuals getting their own coat of arms ?

Might I suggest you do a little research on this. The Heraldry Society of Scotland website would be a great place to start.

[kiltedsawyer]

Might I suggest you do a little research on this. The Heraldry Society of Scotland website would be a great place to start.

Been there, done that, didn't get an answer. You boys can do better than that, answer the question.

[macwilkin]

Been there, done that, didn't get an answer. You boys can do better than that, answer the question.

Because a gentleman can, if he so desires. Any other reason is HIS business, in accordance with his rights in a free society.

Now, may we please get back to the original topic of this thread?

T.

[davidlpope]

May I ask in general, in this day and age, what purpose is there in ordinary individuals getting their own coat of arms ?

Might I suggest you do a little research on this. The Heraldry Society of Scotland website would be a great place to start.

Been there, done that, didn't get an answer. You boys can do better than that, answer the question.

I don't have arms, but I've thought about it quite a bit and I'd like to. Here's why:

1. I'm really an history-junkie at heart. I like flintlock rifles, Old English poetry, and theological debates that started in the 16th century. Matriculating arms would be a tangible connection to a historic system that originated over 900 years ago. To me that is exceedingly "cool". Sort of like wearing a kilt.

2. I'm a big believer in symbols. My Marine officer's sword is a tangible, though outdated (I guess one could argue useless or silly), tie to a warrior ethos that I have inherited and been a part of. Likewise, a grant of arms would be another symbolic tie to a past culture that I have a connection to. Sort of like wearing a kilt.

3. I like things that are passed down in families. I sleep on a metal bedframe that my great-grandfather slept in. I store handsewn quilts made by my great-aunt made in a cedar chest that my grandfather built in high school. I quail hunt with a Browning shotgun that my paternal uncle (too early dead) grew up shooting beside my father. Arms would be something that could originate with me that could be passed down to future generations. Sort of like well-made kilts.

Perhaps not convincing, perhaps very different than the value someone else would put on such things. Just my thoughts on the matter.

Cordially,

David