Ponderings of an ancient Scot.

**Inchessi** · 9th January 10, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by Jock Scot

GREAT! Now here is the crunch Question! "Is it now time for the non Scots to START to wear their own (non Scots) tartans?"

... I really hope that the kilt wearers of the future, with distant, or non Scots connections, will move on to new tartans and leave the clan tartans to the Scots. Thoughts ladies and gentlemen?

Could you clarify your intentions here? I am not certain what the statement suggest? If you are from Scotland, you can wear a clan kilt. If your heritage is Scottish, then you can't wear a clan tartan? Is there a limited generational multiplier in which a man can wear his clan tartan?
Father=yes,
grandfather=yes,
great grandfather= No.

**Jock Scot** · 9th January 10, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by Inchessi

Could you clarify your intentions here? I am not certain what the statement suggest? If you are from Scotland, you can wear a clan kilt. If your heritage is Scottish, then you can't wear a clan tartan? Is there a limited generational multiplier in which a man can wear his clan tartan? Father=yes, grandfather=yes, great grandfather= No.

The question is for non scots really, but this is an open question for all to give opinions on. So lets imagine you are say, a Russian and you may or may not have Scots ancestry and at this moment in time you are wearing a "MacOnion" tartan kilt. Yes? What I am wondering ,assuming the kilt is being worn in say a hundred years time, is what kind of tartan your, as yet unborn, successors will be wearing? Maybe a Russian tartan, maybe a Russian university tartan, maybe a Russian Air force tartan, INSTEAD of the Scots "MacOnion" tartan of today. Just crystal ball gazing, that is all and I was wondering if the need to wear Scots tartans, by non Scots, will dilute over the years.

**Jock Scot** · 9th January 10, 08:38 AM

Ooooops double post.Now deleted.

**Kid Cossack** · 9th January 10, 08:39 AM

Jock:

I'm conflicted. On the one hand, I feel the tie of blood, of history, and of tradition, binding me to my forefathers (and foremothers!) in Scotland, among other places. When people see me in a kilt and ask if I'm Scottish, I respond, "In part, and far enough back." That is, I am descended from Scots (in part). On the other hand, I am an American, a Texan, a Houstonian, and in point of fact I'm not really Scottish.

For that matter, in the modern nation-state, with highly mobile populations, how do we even define Scottishness?

Increasingly I find myself most comfortable when wearing either a tweed kilt, or the USMC/Leatherneck tartan. While clan tartans honor who you were born, and district tartans honor where you were born, the Leatherneck is, in a way of speaking, a regimental tartan, honoring what you did and who you became.

I don't mean to offend anyone by saying this, and I don't pretend it's the only right way to look at it, or even if it's the right way for me to look at it---it's just how it seems to me.

**auld argonian** · 9th January 10, 08:55 AM

Great discussion...only one part of this that I see as being kind of impractical.

How many tartans can anyone expect a weaver to make? There are thousands now....how can anybody cope with many more than that? A tartan for every State, city, village, occupation, organization...and we'd be looking at some very limited runs of material; maybe enough for two or three kilts.

Even with computerization of the equipment, this would amount to something like "printing on demand"..."tartan on demand"?

Best

AA

**Jaggy thistle** · 9th January 10, 08:57 AM

I feel that State and C ounty tartans are good in that people who cannot find a clan can wear a tartan .T hese tartans will in the course of time become these peoples (clan) tartan and will perhaps encourage more people to wear proper tartan kilts instead of these skirts with pockets ! I ,encourage my grandchildren to wear clan tartan which is a kidon anyway as I suspect no Douglas ever wore a kilt what the children will wear when grown up will be up to them but I hope they will stick to a tartan kilt

**Jock Scot** · 9th January 10, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by auld argonian

Great discussion...only one part of this that I see as being kind of impractical.

How many tartans can anyone expect a weaver to make? There are thousands now....how can anybody cope with many more than that? A tartan for every State, city, village, occupation, organization...and we'd be looking at some very limited runs of material; maybe enough for two or three kilts.

Even with computerization of the equipment, this would amount to something like "printing on demand"..."tartan on demand"?

Best

AA

Gor blimey, there is always one that throws a spanner in the works!

Ok, how about, by some miracle, the rest of the world adopts the usual and frugal Scots mindset and only has one kilt?

**RockyR** · 9th January 10, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by auld argonian

Great discussion...only one part of this that I see as being kind of impractical.

How many tartans can anyone expect a weaver to make? There are thousands now....how can anybody cope with many more than that? A tartan for every State, city, village, occupation, organization...and we'd be looking at some very limited runs of material; maybe enough for two or three kilts.

Even with computerization of the equipment, this would amount to something like "printing on demand"..."tartan on demand"?

Best

AA

We can expect them to produce enough tartans as is financially viable for them. Think of it this way... why would every mill produce Black Watch if every other mill does it? B/c there's apparently a market for it.

Directly to your point... there ARE thousands of registered tartans, but the major mills only produce a couple hundred (at MOST) in 13 - 16 oz wool.

If it can be shown that there's a market for US State Tartans, then maybe the mill(s) would produce them as stock.

Now there is a 'tartan on demand' service. It's the Single Width Cloth from Dalgleish and it's expensive b/c of the 'custom' nature of only weaving enough for 1 kilt. If MANY people got together to order or if the mill thought that there's a market for many people to order it, the State tartans could take off just like the Irish County tartans did.

The mill wants to stock tartans that appeal to a wide range of customers to maximize their potential customer base. This is why many small or obscure clan tartans aren't held as stock by any mill (or maybe by 1 mill, but not multiple mills), but larger clan tartans are held in stock in multiple color schemes (ancient, modern, muted, weathered) from multiple mills. It's also the reason for the upswing in mill created 'Universal Fashion Tartans' in the past 20 years. Do the US State Tartans have that kind of mass appeal? Does EVERY state tartan or do just SOME of them? That's the risk a mill would have to take, just like the Irish tartans.

It's a catch 22 to a degree... If the state tartans were cheaper ('standard' kilt price) and readily available (and viewable... not everyone knows they exist), then they would gain popularity. However, they won't be woven as stock until their popularity is established.

**Riverkilt** · 9th January 10, 09:55 AM

I think you clearly see what's happening Jack....well, at least it fits for me.

My tartan kilts all have meaning for me - clans I'm descended from - clan district tartan - military/public safety tartans I wish to honor - and (gasp) Irish tartans to honor the bit of Irish lineage in each of my four grandparents.

The tartans I wear have meaning and pride for me.

I had some fashion tartans and some unaffiliated clan tartans I chose to "round out" my color choices when wearing a kilt. Found I just didn't wear them since they didn't have meaning. Sold them to folks for whom they had meaning.

Have thought about it, may be proven wrong, but I just don't think I'd wear a fashion tartan just because I liked the colors. But I can see other men doing so - particularly men who just want the comfort of a kilt who are not looking to their heritage.

I do enjoy watching the development of new tartans and have even purchased one that makes a political statement of sorts - the Antarctic tartan.

Looking at my wish list I find the expected clan tartans but also 2 state tartans, 2 province tartans, 2 Irish county tartans, 2 Welsh clan tartans, a German tartan, and the Dutch Friendship tartan. All honor my heritage.

So, hopefully the traditional reasons for wearing a kilt/tartan will continue strong as new tartans are developed to honor new "things."

kiltedwolfman · 9th January 10, 10:34 AM

For many wearing tartan holds a very special connection to history, and to some it is purely for looks and comfort. Although I suspect hold true for the latter as well. What perhaps is an important factor is that what was once just a length of patterned ( and in it's insipience non identifying ) wool has become a kind of phenomenon today. People who love kilts can all list an arm length list of reasons why they do, and be ready to defend each point on that list if challenged.

The barriers culturally and geographic borders have for the most part in a small way been wiped clear by kilt wearers, and regardless of type or reason they wear them I think it is a testiment to the symbology of the kilt.

I wear kilts for the heritage, for fashion and comfort, and for it's distictiveness. I have recently tossed around the idea of created my own modern family tartan since as the years progress our relation to Scotland grows thinner and thinner. There must certainly been a time when creating new tartans to represent new families was acceptable, so it follows that it should still be acceptable.