Ponderings of an ancient Scot.

[Scotus]

In my own mind, I would assume that generations to come would only be interested in the kilt because of a Scottish connection. They would, therefore, be more interested in Scottish tartans; e.g., clan tartans. If the connection is so deluded as to remove the connection between the individual and the ancient clan system, I can only guess that people would stop wearing kilts (except a few people who actually live in Scotland and those who wear it for reasons other than a connection to Scotland).

[Scotus]

The way I see it the years between my existence and that of "the Clan" are the same as yours. What's the difference? Well, you live in Scotland and I live in the United States. If we use the logic you're proposing, then should you not be wearing your district or University tartan? You are, after all, no less removed from "the clan" than anyone this side of the pond. My surname is Scottish and I wear the tartan of that Surname. I presume your kilt/tartan was chosen the same way?

Well said. I agree.

[OC Richard]

In my own mind, I would assume that generations to come would only be interested in the kilt because of a Scottish connection. They would, therefore, be more interested in Scottish tartans; e.g., clan tartans.

This is the way it's been in the past, but that is rapidly changing. Just look at the tremendous explosion in the number of Irish tartans and number of people wearing Irish kilts in just the last 20 years.

Now there are Welsh kilts and Cornish kilts. Next I assume will be Galician kilts and Breton kilts (as part of the Celt=kilt equation).

Then there's the huge increase of military and police and fire tartans and kiltwearers, many of these kiltwearers having little or no Scottish ethnic connexion, no Irish or other "Celtic" ethnic connexion.

Though I think that Scottish clan and military tartans will be at the heart of the kiltwearing world for the foreseeable future.

[davidlpope]

What I am asking is for all of us to peer into a crystal ball and see what YOU see for the future. This is a theoretical discussion about you Non Scots(sorry) wearing non Scots tartans as the connection to Scotland dilutes over the next umpteen decades, centuries even.

I'm not sure that the connection to Scotland really gets that much more diluted in a philosophical sense. In a real sense, sure, the first generation (and all those who follow) that grows up outside Scotland has no firsthand experience of the country or its people, save for trips to visit, and is mainly a product of the nation they reside in. But if we reckon that the modern understanding of tartans, kilts, and clans was created in a time that looked romantically back to a much earlier era, then I don't see that the addition of more generations really makes a difference.

(From the crystal ball)

In fact, I'd argue that as we move forward into the future, MORE Americans, Canadians, Australians, Frenchmen(Robert!), etc. will adopt the kilt and Scottish clan tartans as a means of embracing their Scottish ancestry. I think this is due to an increase in both disposable income (despite the economic crash) and non-working time, the increased ease in genealogical research due to the Internet and digitized documents, and a greater willingness to engage in a wider range of hobbies.

I'm not a Scot, but I think if I were, I would encourage the wearing of Scottish tartans by the descendants of the Scottish Diaspora wherever they may reside...It's a powerful visible symbol of what great effect one small nation has had on the world!

Cordially,

David

[###KILTEDKIWI###]

Originally Posted by Jock Scot
GREAT! Now here is the crunch Question! "Is it now time for the non Scots to START to wear their own (non Scots) tartans?"

... I really hope that the kilt wearers of the future, with distant, or non Scots connections, will move on to new tartans and leave the clan tartans to the Scots. Thoughts ladies and gentlemen?

I am a forth generation Kiwi, who's family has always been involved with pipe bands and Caledonian societies, from a part of the country where Predominantly, the Jocks settled on arriving here.

I grew up seeing and only knowing about one tartan "belonging" / being associated to the family name. I am also a fifth generation serviceman, and wear the Cunningham tartan, as not only a connection to my past, but to celebrate those sacrifices and hardships of service. And due to that quite the tradionalist, in some respects.

To my point, my son is a mix of European and Chinese blood, his mother, my wife is half Chinese, and half European (Scottish/Irish) (if you were doing proportions)(which is another reason this country is great)

He may feel that because he is of mixed origins, he maybe slightly at odds with wearing the Cunningham tartan at all, and even then he may not wish to celebrate his origins by wearing a kilt.
(I have no problem with that at all, but shorts, jandals and a wife beater singlet, does not make a grand national attire.)

But if he did, I personally feel that I may try and steer him to wear the New Zealand Tartan. Which as time goes on, will I feel be more appropriate for someone of his generation to wear.

(Brian Beedee, has one in this tartan, couldnt find that post)

http://www.tartansofnz.com/index.php?page=information

I find myself tending to agree with your comment, that it might be time for those of us, so removed from their origins, to take it on the chin, and wear tartans of their country, provinces and or state for the yanks etc.

As I have never had to face that problem,I stand to be corrected here, but as far as I am aware there is nothing stopping you from returning here, apart from the "normal hoops and jumps" that any visitor wishing to take up residence here has to endure. Perhaps I am being naive?

You can keep your country (no offence), I have the greatest one in the world to call home and wouldnt live anywhere else.

It already does, if you're a Kiwi and play rugby!

Japan has John Kirwan (not that it helped the I ties much) as coach and about half a dozen Kiwi's playing for the national team now (gestimate).

[be da veva]

OK chaps I think some of your are missing the point a wee tad. What I am asking is for all of us to peer into a crystal ball and see what YOU see for the future. This is a theoretical discussion about you Non Scots(sorry) wearing non Scots tartans as the connection to Scotland dilutes over the next umpteen decades, centuries even. Might I suggest you read my original post carefully, this is a discussion that I hope does not cause any "heat" to be generated.

I had this thread in my mind all day and I re-read it tonight. I replied to it this morning while trying to make my own breakfast and holding my youngest daughter with my right arm and typing with my left hand (yes, I admit... I need my xmarks kick in the morning...) There was so much I wanted to say and well, I missed breakfast and had to go to work.... I still have a lot to say but it is late and I do not want to type a whole book. I will sleep on it tonight and make it short... And I will also answer you question about the future. (as I have said, I tought about it all day...). see you all in the morning...

Regards all

[Rob Wright]

An interesting question Jock. it is not unusual for members to start a thread stating they have researched their family history and found no connection to a Scottish clan/family. Often they are directed towards several District or other non-clan tartans that provide the connection they are looking for.

Despite the access to records available these days, it still is possible to run into a dead end during one's research and not know if there is a Scottish connection with any degree of certainty.

I take the view that time will not dilute the connection to Scotland but that other barriers will guide people to tartans other than clan tartans because they have a connection that is important to them. Just as many of us have a connection to our clan tartans.

Rob

[be da veva]

Morning already.....

I now see clan tartans as something more related to actual family,friends, association, etc.... there are a few «clan» tartan that I see every where that for some reason don't quite make it to my «have to ask permission» mode. Ramsay blue is one of them. I got one from Alan H and I liked the colors, it was (is) a perfect match for my work uniform. But now, I see that tartan everywhere... bags, work jacket, and so on...

Seeing them like this kinda makes it (to my eyes) a commercial tartan. There are many tartan available with the same colors which are not clan based, why do companys choose clan related tartans... I feel it is like replicating a family coat of arms and making money with it. I can understand it is a beautiful tartan, I find a lot of them are to my taste. But I will now ask if I am welcome to wear it.

As for the future, Well, more kilt wearers is ok as long as they don't wear them sloppily. To me, wearing a kilt started asa meaning to honor some ancestors on my mothers side. Now, It is just plain comfortable and I like the way I present myself to others when I wear them. Sure, I wear it casual, more formal, heck sometimes I wear it gonzo style... But everytime I strap one one, it as to look good. Not sloppy. Don't wear it to low, or backwards or inside out.... This is what I am afraid of when I think of kilts in the future.
I don't mind the color schemes, but the way it should be worn.

It is a simple garment and it goes well with many accessories, but I do not want it to be cheaply made or cheaply looking. It might sond silly, but I don't want my good kilt to be compared with somebody else's cheap kilt or cheap costume. We can all see some of the clothes people wear these days (and in the old days...) Some of these clothes are atrocious....

I don't want the kilt to develop and be worn like snoop dogg did a few years ago.

rant over ;)

Good thread, but I need a time out.... very good thread. ;)

[OC Richard]

To my point, my son is a mix of European and Chinese blood, his mother, my wife is half Chinese, and half European (Scottish/Irish) (if you were doing proportions)(which is another reason this country is great)

Our country is great in that way too! The pipe band I play in has a very wide mix of ethnicities which reflects our area: Chinese, Thai, Mexican, African, Philipino, Scandinavian, German, English, etc as well as a few of Scottish or Irish descent. Here are some of us:

[Jock Scot]

Wow, what interesting replies! I mean it, I am impressed. It is a bit unfair to pick out just one train of thought, but Rocky's surprised me. He is at the sharp end of the kilt world, making and selling kilts, so he knows better than most of us what he can and can't sell, and his confidence on being able to sell "new" tartans, if he could get his hands on them, is very interesting. Thank you every one and keep those thoughts coming.