Harris Tweed Tartans

[Jock Scot]

Even the weathered Gunn tartan has the narrow green lines separating the blue and black checks (although the green is light brown and the blue has become dove grey). The Harris tweed tartan shown on Scotweb's site is totally lacking in these stripes:

Harris Tweed tartan:



Here is the Gunn tartan in weathered colors:



Close, but no cigar!

Well, to my non artistic eye and given that weathered colours are notoriously difficult to decipher, I would suggest that the top picture is more like MacLeod of Assynt(the green one).

[beloitpiper]

That is gorgeous! A modern Gordon in tweed would look absolutely amazing. I think I've got a new one for the top of my list...

[Wompet]

We've found a weaver there who is able to weave us ANY tartan as Harris Tweed.

As the proud owner for the "Not-quite-Hunting Robertson" Newsome box pleat, this really appeals to me.

Even the weathered Gunn tartan has the narrow green lines separating the blue and black checks (although the green is light brown and the blue has become dove grey). The Harris tweed tartan shown on Scotweb's site is totally lacking in these stripes:

Harris Tweed tartan:



Here is the Gunn tartan in weathered colors:



Close, but no cigar!

The Scotsman - rotate either the top or bottom picture 90°. Once the tartans are aligned the same way, the narrow lines in the overcheck may be slightly more noticeable. They're there, but the "weathering" combined with the harris tweed colors make them difficult to spot.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Glad to see you are helping the Harris Tweed industry out, Nick!

On a purely "tartan academic" note, I have to agree with those saying that this image, though, is not the Gunn tartan.

In fact, it looks to be the same design as another on-line Harris Tweed supplier is selling as MacLeod, though it is not technically that tartan, either.

[Nick Fiddes]

Hi Matt - I admit it was my best guess. Should probably have checked at the time... But bear in mind that it's not beneath the big tartan weavers to add in, or leave out, the odd line here or there basically because they think it looks better that way. Sacrilege perhaps. But also true.

And arguably in any case it's perhaps a bit of a modern affectation that we try to be so punctilious about such things, when the true history was rather less exact. I read once that that Shakespeare spelled his own name 171 different ways... ;-)

[Nick Fiddes]

There is record of a housewife who, in 1572, gave coloured wool to a weaver to make into her tartan. When the weaver made the tartan according to his own design and not according to hers, she sued him before a magistrate and won. The weaver was punished.

Indeed. Do the records record how substantial the difference was?

Of course if you buy a cow and are sent a goat then that is unequivocally breach of contract. But creative design deals more in difference in degree than in kind. I'm not claiming I'm 100% certain in my identification, and may yet be proven wrong. But I'd humbly suggest there is oodles of historical precedent, which continues to this day, of tartan setts as well as shades being fairly loosely interpreted. Matt? Care to comment?

Perhaps this debate deserves its own thread.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Nick,

There are different principles in play here, I believe.

On the one hand, yes, historically and traditionally variation in tartan was the norm. There was no real attempt to standardize tartan until the eighteenth century with large firms such as Wilsons of Bannockburn, and much of the need for standardization was due to tartan being adopted by the military.

Industrial production methods made such standarization more easily achieved. When tartan was, for the most part, woven by hand in small runs, variation was indeed the norm. Also this would be in the day before named clan tartans, so really who cared much if a stripe was missing here or there? People bought and wore tartan becuase they liked the design of it, not because the particular design meant anything to them.

On the other hand, today is a different situation. Named tartans are the norm -- in fact to many if it is not a named tartan, it's not really a tartan! People wear tartans for symbolic reasons, and the specific design of that tartan is very important to them.

This is especially true when you have many tartans that are extremely close in design. Weave the MacLaren tartan with white in place of yellow and what you have is not "the MacLaren tartan with white" but rather the Ferguson tartan! Leave one of the narrow green stripes off the MacQuarrie tartan and you have the MacDonald of Sleat. Flip-flop the red and white in the MacKenzie tartan and you have Hunting Robertson.

Then, as you said, there is the fact that the customer deserves to get what they ordered. If I ordered a length of Gunn tartan and received what you show in the pictures, I'd send it back. Not because it is not lovely but because it is not the recognized Gunn tartan.

For what it's worth, a lot of tartans I have seen offered in Harris Tweed have not been accurate. I've had to use a discerning eye when ordering Harris Tweed in tartan in the past. Most of the time the tartans have been reproduced accurately but often enough the weaver has taken some liberties with the design. I once purchased a length of Harris Tweed that was being sold as MacKenzie -- and the small image I saw of it on line indeeded looked like it could be a weathered MacKenzie. When I received the length of tartan cloth, I discovered that the pattern was similar to the MacKenzie but with a few differences. One of which was that the tartan had an entirely different warp and weft!

I kept the cloth because I was buying it primarily for the aesthetics. And I sold the kilt I made in that cloth as a "non-named tartan similat to weathered MacKenzie." But if I were buying the cloth specifically because I wanted/needed the MacKenzie tartan I would have quickly sent it back to the weaver.

Variation and creativity are one of the things you will expect in hand-woven goods produced in small batches -- it is one of the things that makes Harris Tweed so lovely, in my opinion. But when you add tartan to the equation, you do have to be carefull that creativity does not compromise the design of the tartan itself -- customers want their own tartan, after all, not a fashion variation of it!

[Nick Fiddes]

Thanks Matt. I wouldn't disagree with anything you say. But I'd nonetheless still note that while traditional named tartans have indeed within relatively recent history become recorded with more or less universally accepted versions (and contemporary designs are almost always more closely defined) it remains the case that even the respected weavers can differ in the versions they produce. Perhaps this is sometimes simple error. But on other occasions it's a matter of preference and policy as to how they interpret a traditional pattern. I think we're in danger of getting too hung up on a modern predilection for precision, when arguably the real meaning of tartan lies in the pattern being broadly recognised by the people who want to share it and wear it.

As for the Harris Tweed tartans, I hear what you say about ones you've seen produced in the past, which isn't altogether surprising as tartan is not their main speciality. But I'm confident that the process we're putting in place with the weavers will produce the setts we specify, so that's all good from our point of view.

[Jock Scot]

Matt and Nick you have both made very good points on how weavers have "interpreted" a tartan in the past. There is, I think, a realisation needed from the weavers of today who, as quite correctly pointed out, are not tartan specialists and that tartans are almost an exact science and their customers expect a tartan to bare a distinct resemblance to what was ordered.

In the past, a modest(!!?) veering off course from a pattern and colour was almost expected and was explained away by the cry of; "well that is what you get from handmade cloth and don't forget the the wool takes on the dye in slightly(!?) differing ways". Both these observations are quite true, but, with Harris Tweed tartan, I feel that the weavers are going to have to be rather more disciplined with their "artistic interpretations" of the product. I fear that if they don't, there will be ultimately tears all round.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

As for the Harris Tweed tartans, I hear what you say about ones you've seen produced in the past, which isn't altogether surprising as tartan is not their main speciality. But I'm confident that the process we're putting in place with the weavers will produce the setts we specify, so that's all good from our point of view.

Exactly. You and I have talked in the past about having Harris Tweed produced in tartan, so you know this is something I am working with myself, as well.

There is a difference between when a Harris Tweed weaver comes up with their own tartan designs to bring to market, perhaps based on traditional clan tartans, but with free artistic licence, and when a Harris Tweed weaver is producing a tartan to fill a specific order. When I order Harris Tweeds in tartan, I give very specific details about what I want, because I want to make sure the tartan is produced accurately.

Jock:

In the past, a modest(!!?) veering off course from a pattern and colour was almost expected and was explained away by the cry of; "well that is what you get from handmade cloth and don't forget the the wool takes on the dye in slightly(!?) differing ways". Both these observations are quite true, but, with Harris Tweed tartan, I feel that the weavers are going to have to be rather more disciplined with their "artistic interpretations" of the product. I fear that if they don't, there will be ultimately tears all round.

I think some of the unique artistic qualities of Harris Tweed can and should be preserved in terms of the unique color choices and blending. For this reason I would never be so picky as to complain "that's not the precise shade of green that should be used in this tartan!" These kinds of rich color details are one of the things that makes Harris Tweed so sought after.

However, when it comes to the details of the tartan sett itself, care can and should be taken to preserve the defining elements of the sett.