What is Traditional Highland Dress?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Except, hasn't it been mentioned in several discussions on this forum that the "ordinary highland scot" rarely wears a kilt?

That's absolutely true-- but when they do wear the kilt they are appropriately dressed for the occasion, be it a night at the pub, a friends wedding, or the Aboyne Games. In Scotland the kilt is worn without parody.

I think that you are coming very close to taking traditional highland dress into the realm of historical reenactment...

Hardly.

which is fine for those who want to do that. The thing is, though, that you need to recognize that the rules only apply to those who want to assume the highland dress role.

Excuse me, but I'm going to stop you right here to point out that this thread is about traditional Highland attire. If you want to take this into some other realm-- the realm of justifying dressing in a manner largely, if not wholly, unknown in the Highlands of Scotland-- you will probably find more people willing to give your views a sympathetic hearing in another forum.

The rest of us can wear whatever we feel is appropriate.

Absolutely. And if someone wants to advocate wearing one's Y-fronts on their head, like a hat, and cackling like a chicken as one walks down the street, I'll be the first to give their adherents all the space they require on the public foot path. But I won't give one inch to any outlandish suggestions about wearing the kilt on this forum.

I am not saying that wearing what you feel is "correct" traditional attire is wrong, but it is wrong to criticize and/or ridicule kilted folk who don't dress by your rules...

Two things here, where you are off base. (1) I only critique someone if asked for an opinion and then I inevitably try, to the best of my ability, to justify those opinions. (2) I have never ridiculed anyone on this forum, and it is wrong for you to suggest that I have.

...(and you do of course know that there are not really rules on how to dress).

Well, when it come to Traditional Highland attire there are "rules"; you may choose to disregard them, or flaunt them. But the "rules" do exist. I think they are better described as accepted, or expected, standards of dress, but their effect is the same.

What I fail to understand is why you think a thread about traditional Highland dress, in a forum quite clearly about traditional Highland attire, is the place to argue for wearing something other than traditional Highland dress.

[Lyle1]

That's absolutely true -- but when In Scotland the kilt is worn without parody.

Two things here, where you are off base. (1) I only critique someone if asked for an opinion and then I inevitably try, to the best of my ability, to justify those opinions. (2) I have never ridiculed anyone on this forum, and it is wrong for you to suggest that I have. Well, when it come to Traditional Highland attire there are "rules"; you may choose to disregard them, or flaunt them. But the "rules" do exist. I think they are better described as accepted, or expected, standards of dress, but their effect is the same.

What I fail to understand is why you think a thread about traditional Highland dress, in a forum quite clearly about traditional Highland attire, is the place to argue for wearing something other than traditional Highland dress.

If, in Scotland, the kilt is worn without parody, please explain the very negative, earlier comments in this discussion in response to pictures of young Scottish men wearing kilts in a very casual manner. Those comments suggested that the young men were guilty of great offenses to the kilt.

I did not say that you directly ridiculed specific person. You do seem to know a lot about clothing, and manners. However, you are often very dismissive of and affect a condescending air towards anyone who does not share your view of how a gentlemen, or at least what you perceive a gentlemen to be, and how he dresses and acts.

What I do not understand is many posters think that a thread about Traditional Highland dress is the place to criticize anyone who chooses to forgo the trappings that constitute Traditional Highland dress when they wear a kilt, as in the manner of the Scottish youth pictured and ridiculed earlier in this thread.

I do not often read The Historical Highland Attire thread, but I do not recall that the posters to that thread criticize or ridicule wearers of the kilt who do not aspire to historical accuracy when wearing the kilt in a non-reenactment venue. There have been times in that forum when remarks were made about some item of apparel that was not historically accurate for the period that the wearer was attempting to portray, but that criticism would seem to be justified, in the context in which the item was worn and the wearer's intent to be historically accurate. However, the critical remarks were offered politely and did not contain references to any person's character.

I would suggest that perhaps this forum could confine its sartorial criticism of kilted men to those men who are aspiring to the Highland Dress esthetic. There is no need, and indeed, a true gentleman would find it unseemly, to say that someone looks "stupid" (a quote about a kilted Scottish youth from this thread) because they are not dress to what ever standards this forum finds appropriate.

In plainer lanugage, dress the way you want, and talk as much as you want about what is really appropriate Highland Dress, but stop making demeaning remarks about people who do not even pretend to wear the kilt in the Highland manner. Insulting remarks do not add to the discussion of Highland dress in a positive manner. Extend the same level of politeness and common courtesy to others as you would expect to be extended to those who seek some level of "accuracy" of Highland dress.

Remember, your opinion about the proper way to wear a kilt is only binding on the way the YOU wear a kilt. If you don't like the way another person wears or accessorizes a kilt, don't copy the example, and suffer in silence.

[macwilkin]

In plainer lanugage, dress the way you want, and talk as much as you want about what is really appropriate Highland Dress, but stop making demeaning remarks about people who do not even pretend to wear the kilt in the Highland manner. Insulting remarks do not add to the discussion of Highland dress in a positive manner. Extend the same level of politeness and common courtesy to others as you would expect to be extended to those who seek some level of "accuracy" of Highland dress.

Remember, your opinion about the proper way to wear a kilt is only binding on the way the YOU wear a kilt. If you don't like the way another person wears or accessorizes a kilt, don't copy the example, and suffer in silence.

Of course, the very same statement could also be applied to those who frequently brand all traditionalist kilt-wearers as "kilt police", "kilt nazis", and so forth. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

T.

[MacMillans son]

I think what is difficult for some on this continent to come to grips with is the level of Scottish pride that comes with the kilt. We outwith of Scotland, at least here in the U.S., don't have a "national attire" which generates as much emotion as the Kilt does for Scots. We compare it, emotionally, with Levis and can't understand what all of the fuss is about. We equate their emotional stance about how it should be worn to us telling them how they should wear their jeans.

Instead, as I am gleaning from the emotional replies from my new friends in Scotland, perhaps we here should equate it with how another country treats our flag. For many Scots, the kilt is not just a garment, it's a national symbol and treating it with anything but the utmost respect is experienced as a slight against their national pride, not just a fashion failure.

When I visualize the American flag being chopped up, turned into nic nacs, worn as casual clothing, especially in countries other than my own, I have a much different response than when I see someone wearing Levis in a way I would not choose to wear them (bleached, purposely torn or stained etc)

Through that lens I see a much different picture.

Am I gaining on it?

Brooke

[Jock Scot]

I think what is difficult for some on this continent to come to grips with is the level of Scottish pride that comes with the kilt. We outwith of Scotland, at least here in the U.S., don't have a "national attire" which generates as much emotion as the Kilt does for Scots. We compare it, emotionally, with Levis and can't understand what all of the fuss is about. We equate their emotional stance about how it should be worn to us telling them how they should wear their jeans.

Instead, as I am gleaning from the emotional replies from my new friends in Scotland, perhaps we here should equate it with how another country treats our flag. For many Scots, the kilt is not just a garment, it's a national symbol and treating it with anything but the utmost respect is experienced as a slight against their national pride, not just a fashion failure.

When I visualize the American flag being chopped up, turned into nic nacs, worn as casual clothing, especially in countries other than my own, I have a much different response than when I see someone wearing Levis in a way I would not choose to wear them (bleached, purposely torn or stained etc)

Through that lens I see a much different picture.

Am I gaining on it?

Brooke

Yes Brooke I think you are getting nearer to "our" way of thinking and I for one, really appreciate you taking the trouble to try and understand where the Scots are coming from over this.Thank you.

Without, I hope, sounding patronising, the bit that you and your countrymen tend to forget is that the New World is a very young place compared with Scotland's place in the Old World. We have, say, at least another 600 to 1000 years of culture, history and traditions to carry on our backs compared to you chaps in the New World.Now in all fairness, that must take a fair bit of understanding for all concerned. In many ways you chaps have a clean slate, relatively speaking, and it is part of your young culture to question, reject if necessary, and adapt just about everything the Old World stands for and therein lies the crux of your understandable confusion.

[MacBean]

... I for one, really appreciate you taking the trouble to try and understand where the Scots are coming from over this.Thank you.
...
In many ways you chaps have a clean slate, relatively speaking, and it is part of your young culture to question, reject if necessary, and adapt just about everything the Old World stands for and therein lies the crux of your understandable confusion.

I suspect it is more complex than that as we do have history, and many here of Scots descent consider Scottish history as their own history. And why not? Some in the South may see the Jacobite Rebellions, the American Revolution, the Confederate secession (and perhaps the wild dress in Highland Games) as a continuum. Don't ask me how, I only barely understand it myself. That we have a great number of folk who have always questioned and distrusted tradition is probably true. Those who came here wer seeking opportunity for sure, but may also have been running away from their past constraints.

[macwilkin]

I suspect it is more complex than that as we do have history, and many here of Scots descent consider Scottish history as their own history. And why not? Some in the South may see the Jacobite Rebellions, the American Revolution, the Confederate secession (and perhaps the wild dress in Highland Games) as a continuum. Don't ask me how, I only barely understand it myself. That we have a great number of folk who have always questioned and distrusted tradition is probably true. Those who came here wer seeking opportunity for sure, but may also have been running away from their past constraints.

That is precisely why David recommended the excellent book Highland Heritage by Celeste Ray several pages back.

T.

[ali8780]

I think what is difficult for some on this continent to come to grips with is the level of Scottish pride that comes with the kilt. We outwith of Scotland, at least here in the U.S., don't have a "national attire" which generates as much emotion as the Kilt does for Scots. We compare it, emotionally, with Levis and can't understand what all of the fuss is about. We equate their emotional stance about how it should be worn to us telling them how they should wear their jeans.

Instead, as I am gleaning from the emotional replies from my new friends in Scotland, perhaps we here should equate it with how another country treats our flag. For many Scots, the kilt is not just a garment, it's a national symbol and treating it with anything but the utmost respect is experienced as a slight against their national pride, not just a fashion failure.

When I visualize the American flag being chopped up, turned into nic nacs, worn as casual clothing, especially in countries other than my own, I have a much different response than when I see someone wearing Levis in a way I would not choose to wear them (bleached, purposely torn or stained etc)

Through that lens I see a much different picture.

Am I gaining on it?

Brooke

Thank you for this-- I was pondering a similar vein of thought myself as I was reading through this thread.

[ThistleDown]

I think what is difficult for some on this continent to come to grips with is the level of Scottish pride that comes with the kilt. We outwith of Scotland, at least here in the U.S., don't have a "national attire" which generates as much emotion as the Kilt does for Scots. We compare it, emotionally, with Levis and can't understand what all of the fuss is about. We equate their emotional stance about how it should be worn to us telling them how they should wear their jeans.

Instead, as I am gleaning from the emotional replies from my new friends in Scotland, perhaps we here should equate it with how another country treats our flag. For many Scots, the kilt is not just a garment, it's a national symbol and treating it with anything but the utmost respect is experienced as a slight against their national pride, not just a fashion failure.

When I visualize the American flag being chopped up, turned into nic nacs, worn as casual clothing, especially in countries other than my own, I have a much different response than when I see someone wearing Levis in a way I would not choose to wear them (bleached, purposely torn or stained etc)

Through that lens I see a much different picture.

Am I gaining on it?

Brooke

Yes, Brooke, you are. It's not all about the kilt, though, it is about "Traditional Highland (Civilian) Dress".

I brought into the discussion your own baseball cap (which, I am told, has evolved into a "ballcap" and now into just simply "the cap"). I asked if it is a traditional item of American attire, if wearing it backwards is a "fashion" and if wearing it backwards and indoors is a "personal style".

You have read what happened next.

There is no divergence of opinion comparable in Scotland on the subject of flat caps -- which, by the way, have evolved into "caps" for us. They are loved by most for their function, but they are not considered by any to be an item of traditional Highland civilian dress.

Traditional Civilian Highland Dress does not include flat caps or pith helmets (sorry, Jamie) or claymores or targes or deer-hide shoes or so-called Jacobite shirts or regimental ties or tiers of badges and medals.

What the Scots on this forum -- and those who understand our culture so very well despite not living in it -- strongly object to is being told that some fashion (read "flat caps" or anything else from the above list here, if you wish) is traditional Highland attire because it is popular and worn with the kilt in a region of America.

Sorry, but we own the tradition. We love that you want to borrow it and even adopt it as your own, but the tradition is that of the Highlands of Scotland and not subject to the whims of somebody from somewhere else. It has evolved over time and it will continue to do so. It may even adopt some fashions or features developed elsewhere in the world as it evolves (rubber soles for our brogues comes to mind .

So, Brooke, you are on the way for sure for sure. Using your analogy, let's say a number of folk in Scotland take the American flag, turn it upside down, stitch a big white saltire over the stars and fly it from a flag pole. It becomes the Scottish fashion to do that -- and to call it "Old Glory".

Is it a traditional American flag? Is it an American flag at all?

With passion (and great respect),

Rex

[davidlpope]

Sorry, but we own the tradition. We love that you want to borrow it and even adopt it as your own, but the tradition is that of the Highlands of Scotland and not subject to the whims of somebody from somewhere else. It has evolved over time and it will continue to do so. It may even adopt some fashions or features developed elsewhere in the world as it evolves (rubber soles for our brogues comes to mind .

Rex,

Despite being an outlander, I agree with your statement. The necessary corollary, though, is that Americans are dependent on Highlanders for "informing our sensibilities" concerning Traditional Highland Civilian Dress (THCD). I'm appreciative of the guidance provided here on XMarks, and covet those rare trips to Scotland, but perhaps some brainstorming for additional ways that the word can be got out is in order...

I did have a question raised when I read this section:

Traditional Civilian Highland Dress does not include flat caps or pith helmets (sorry, Jamie) or claymores or targes or deer-hide shoes or so-called Jacobite shirts or regimental ties or tiers of badges and medals.

I recall many photos of individuals wearing THCD, in the Highlands, which featured regimental neckties. I understand that one should only wear neckties one "rates"(regiments/ branches of service one has served in), but shouldn't they be considered an acceptable aspect of THCD even if they are not a required aspect of THCD? Please help me to understand the distinction here.

Cordially,

David