Balanced treatment of Ulster history

[Good Egg]

You could check out this lot: http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/

Funnily enough Nelson McCausland a local politico and devolved Minister for Culture had a whine at museums and asked them to give more prominence to Ulster-Scots, the Orange Order and alternative views on the origin of the universe in their displays. When I saw the title of this thread I thought that's what you were referring to.

The study of history is fascinating and anyone who is not aware of it is doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past but history is also highly subjective. Irish 'victimhood' is a wonder to behold. Trouble is they are not the exceptional victims they like to think they are. The potato famine was terrible but so were the Highland clearances. Life expectancy and poverty in Glasgow was far worse than Ireland. Conditions in Manchester were appalling. The famines in the Fenlands caused mass migrations. The difference was that all these people got on and made a life for themselves instead of revelling in their victim status.

A parallel in American history would be slavery. I hear a lot of African-Americans blame slavery and the white man for their failure to thrive. I never hear any of them give thanks to the 389,753 men of the Federal Army who were killed or the 275,175 who were wounded or for the huge amount of treasure that was expended freeing the slaves. (Yes I know there were other cause of the war).

Anyway I don't think you'll get a balanced view, you'll just have to read lots of different stuff and make up your own mind.

[denmcdough]

In reference to the last post, by Courtmount:

Oh really!????? You're touching on a delegate issue, and may not be REALLY pertinent to the OP. Treading on a thin line, here, with the political view point!

RULE #5...????????!!!!

[McElmurry]

Anyway I don't think you'll get a balanced view, you'll just have to read lots of different stuff and make up your own mind.

I suspected as much but I thought some learned recommendations might get me closer to center.

Speaking of neutrality I notice you list your location as Nor'n Iron. I read yesterday that this is the most neutral way to refer to the region of Northern Ireland. Would it be too weird for a Yankee to use the term Nor'n Iron? In an historic context when referencing the northern most of the four regions of the island of Ireland is Uladh preferable to Ulster?

[Good Egg]

Nor'n Iron is an attempt (childish perhaps) to render into writing the way many of my neighbours pronounce Northern Ireland. NI is the de facto geo-political entity. Ulster includes counties that are part of the Republic although it tends to be used as shorthand for the 'Province' which is another way of referring to the place.

Don't get me wrong its a great place and on the whole lovely people - I have many friends on all sides of the divide. Although my own view on that is 'a curse a both (all) your houses'.

I spent 9 years living in Hong Kong where we refereed to the place as 'the colony' I have once or twice had a senior moment and used 'colony' instead of 'province'. Doh! Especially amongst some of the world touchiest people.

[McElmurry]

In reference to the last post, by Courtmount:

You're touching on a delegate issue, and may not be REALLY pertinent to the OP.

I appreciate your efforts to keep this post open. I have no way of telling how thin the ice is. I just want to learn about the lands of my ancestors and several branches go through (or to) the northern portion of the island of Ireland. I hope to travel there one day as well as to Scotland and England and Wales from whence most of my ancestors emigrated.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I have noticed that there is sometimes a tendency for some people of Irish decent in North America to read into postings made by those of us who actually live (or until quite recently, lived) in Ireland things which are neither written nor implied.

As a Wicklow man (that's in the Republic for those who may not be familiar with Irish geography), I certainly didn't pick up on any "political view" in Courtmount's postings. His comments concerning the almost institutional view of "victimhood" by many of the Irish-- especially amongst some segments of the diaspora-- are, sadly, quite correct; this "victimology" neither accurately reflects the whole of our history nor the place of our country in 21st century Europe. This "theology of blame" has done nothing to improve Ireland, and much to hold it back-- often at a most dreadful price paid in innocent human lives on both sides of the border and both sides of St. George's Channel.

Ulster, as it exists both historically and as a 20th century geo-political entity, has a rich and varied history and culture, and is home to nearly a million Irish men and women who are justifiably proud of their heritage, be it Scots, Welsh, German, Norse, English, Chinese, or just plain old garden variety Irish.

The discussion of the history of the people of Ulster, although it will inevitably be laced with politics the same as any other history -- need not, nor should it be, construed as a political discussion -- because the history of Ireland, of which Ulster is a part, is far richer than the pettiness of partisan politics.

[Jock Scot]

I can't fault anyone wanting to get a balanced view of any country and the only way is to read, ask questions, study, read more, ask more and in Ulster's case you will need to do that again and again, because its history is complicated by many factors------perhaps many more should enquire into its real history and then make their own mind up and move on.

[denmcdough]

Oh, I agree that learning about the balanced history of Ulster is a wonderful idea, but MOR, you make a poor assumption, too. Are you Irish or Scottish, or what? You play both sides it seems. In reference to Courtmount was that it seems like he was making this a spitting contest. What happened in Scotland, Ireland, or anywhere in the world, when it comes to subjugation, is despicable! No one had it worse than the other...it is all horrifying!

Learning about history is wonderful, but the comment about slavery was a bit much in my opinion, as was the comment about one side having it worse than the other. Again, it's all horrible. Unfortunately, though, it's part of our history.

[macwilkin]

Oh, I agree that learning about the balanced history of Ulster is a wonderful idea, but MOR, you make a poor assumption, too. Are you Irish or Scottish, or what? You play both sides it seems. In reference to Courtmount was that it seems like he was making this a spitting contest. What happened in Scotland, Ireland, or anywhere in the world, when it comes to subjugation, is despicable! No one had it worse than the other...it is all horrifying!

Learning about history is wonderful, but the comment about slavery was a bit much in my opinion, as was the comment about one side having it worse than the other. Again, it's all horrible. Unfortunately, though, it's part of our history.

No, Rathdown was raising a valid point, and he did so pretty objectively, from this historian's point-of-view. That's not to say that some historical events in Ireland were terrible, but the popular view of Irish history, especially among Irish-Americans, who have their own "spin" on things, very rarely usually looks at both sides of the issue. That's only natural, I suppose, when it comes to personal bias and the romanticization of the hatred of the English thanks to one-too-many pints o' Guiness and a stoundtrack by the Wolfe Tones, but the story is much more complicated than that.

For example, while we all know of the Great Famine in Ireland, few people know that the famine also hit the German states, which along with the political turmoil in 1848, caused thousands of Germans to immigrate to the United States at the same time the Irish were coming over. Both groups faced discrimination based on religious and ethnic backgrounds, yet the German struggle is not as well publicized as the Irish story in America.

And as the descendant of a number of Union soldiers, I tend to agree with the comment regarding the Federal army's role in ending slavery. If anything, I find it a bit troubling that you would be offended about someone mentioning the sacrifices of the "Boys in Blue" during the Civil War, especially given that we celebrated "their" holiday yesterday.

And btw, many of those "Billy Yanks" that you object to Courtmount mentioning were Irish immigrants.

T.

[denmcdough]

Sorry, but Memorial Day is just not about the "boys in blue," Mr. historian!