Would flopping this image be proper?

**thescot** · 14th June 10, 10:09 AM

I guess I misunderstood the original question. I thought BH meant that the shield only would be tilted in the other direction with all other elements to remain essentially the same. (After a more careful reading, I believe that I was remiss in that interpretation.) But for the sake of argument, and my own illumination, consider this:

Questions of ownership not withstanding, it is quite proper to lean the shield in any direction since that is not really part of the standard charge, is it? In fact, I had understood that the leaning shield was something of a modern asthetic emandation depending on the artist's rendering, and that older representations usually had the shield standing straight up. Although I cannot for the life of me remember seeing a shield tilt to the right.

I would like to hear from the more knowledgeable folks about that.

**MacMillan of Rathdown** · 14th June 10, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by thescot

I guess I misunderstood the original question. I thought BH meant that the shield only would be tilted in the other direction with all other elements to remain essentially the same. (After a more careful reading, I believe that I was remiss in that interpretation.) But for the sake of argument, and my own illumination, consider this:

Questions of ownership not withstanding, it is quite proper to lean the shield in any direction since that is not really part of the standard charge, is it? In fact, I had understood that the leaning shield was something of a modern asthetic emandation depending on the artist's rendering, and that older representations usually had the shield standing straight up. Although I cannot for the life of me remember seeing a shield tilt to the right.

I would like to hear from the more knowledgeable folks about that.

A "simple" achievement of arms is comprised of three elements: the shield, the crest, and the helmet. The shield can be described as having three "points" or "corners"; A & B at the top and C at the bottom.

Generally speaking the shield is depicted on letters patent granting the arms with the top (that is the line between A and B) horizontal. This is done to clearly illustrate the charges on the shield. The helmet (which may or may not be indicative of status or rank) rests on top of the shield and is surmounted by the crest. (The motto, although mentioned in the grant, is not part of the achievement and may be displayed on a scroll either above the crest or below the shield.)

In every day usage the armiger may choose to display his arms in the manner mentioned above, or he may alter the attitude of the shield for pragmatic or artistic reasons. The most common change in attitude is to change the AB line from horizontal to diagonal. This is achieved by lowering point A until the AB line is at roughly a 45* angle. To keep the helmet from sliding off it now sits over point B, and in some instances may slightly obscure the charge or charges on the shield. As with the horizontal placement of the shield the helmet faces to the viewers left, which is heraldic right (or dexter as heralds call it).

Occasionally it may be desirable to tilt the shield in the opposite direction (that is with point A raised above point B, again placing the AB line at a roughly 45* angle). This is most often done when two different shields are placed side by side for social purposes-- an example of which might be a wedding invitation where the arms of the groom's parents and the arms of the bride's parents would appear at the top of the invitation. In this instance the arms are said to be "respecting each other", and the groom's arms (on the viewer's left) would raise its point A while the bride's father' arms would raise its point B above the horizontal.

The helmet and crest of the bride's father would assume the normal position on the B point, while that of the groom's father, now sitting on point A, would turn to face that of his son's soon to be father-in-law. Because the crest is assumed to be fixed to the helmet, it too would turn to show the other side.

The practice of depicting shields in other than AB horizontal is probably as old as heraldry itself. And when you think about, if you were to hang a shield on the wall by its straps it would probably be as apt to hang in a diagonal attitude as vertically.

**MacMillan of Rathdown** · 14th June 10, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by Mike_Oettle

MacMillan of Rathdown wrote: “The idea that the badge of a clansman should only be rendered in monochrome really has to do with paper heraldry, where the use of coloured inks is often regarded as ‘vulgar’.”
Actually, my impression is not that it has to do with printing, but rather with the metal used for the bonnet badge.
It is not generally regarded as proper to wear an enamelled crest-badge on the balmoral, glengarry or tam o’shanter.
Of course, if one is dealing with one’s own crest, one can do whatever one wishes, but if you are wearing a clan chief’s crest it is regarded as laying claim to it if it is in colour.
Paintings and other illustrations are another matter. One can even display the chief’s full armorial bearings, if one wishes – as long as the display does not suggest that the person displaying the arms is the owner.
But I would say that wearing a tattoo is more akin to wearing a bonnet badge than to what you might display on the wall.
Regards,
Mike

Mike,

I generally agree with what you are saying-- especially when it comes to the clansman's badge as worn on a hat. That said, if a lady should choose to have the badge of her clan rendered in precious stones in their correct colours, well there would be nothing wrong with that (although if she has that much money to spend on a brooch she should consider petitioning for a grant of arms in her own name!).

A tattoo, like the above mentioned brooch, really falls into the category of personal adornment, and there would be no heraldic reason that I can think of that would prevent it from being rendered in full colour.

Regards,

Scott

**BoldHighlander** · 14th June 10, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by thescot

I guess I misunderstood the original question. I thought BH meant that the shield only would be tilted in the other direction with all other elements to remain essentially the same. (After a more careful reading, I believe that I was remiss in that interpretation.)

To tell you the truth Jim, I really don't know if my acquaintance meant to change all the other elements or not, however I must say I have found the discussion & the information put forth most interesting.

Thank you everyone

**creagdhubh** · 28th June 10, 03:42 PM

Greetings gents,

I have a rather large tattoo of the Clan Macpherson clansman's badge in black ink only, on my left shoulder, and the badge of "Na Dionadairean Clann Mhuirich", The Guardians of the Clan Macpherson , of which I am, and is approved for wear by my Chief, Sir William Alan Macpherson of Cluny and Blairgowrie, TD (see the two links below for more information) on my right shoulder in black ink only. Both tattoos are the same size, simple and correct to the lawful standard setforth by the Court of the Lord Lyon and my Chief. Both tattoos are in the same position (symmetrical to one another) on my shoulders.

I do not have photos of my tattoos at this time, however I will post an image of the Macpherson clansman's badge and The Guardians of the Clan Macpherson badge-imagine both of them in only black ink and shaded conservatively in the appropriate places for aesthetic purposes. I would never have a tattoo done of my Chief's arms (see example below), his standard (see example below), or his banner (see example below)...and that pertains to anyone elses for that matter. To do so, is simply bad taste, ignorant, basically identity theft, and against the law in Scotland-it would be extremely disgraceful and dishonourable for anyone to do such a thing.

http://www.sonasmor.net/H04c.dionadaireanbadge.html
http://www.sonasmor.net/Panel102.html

Correct color example of The Guardians of the Clan Macpherson badge.

Sterling Silver Macpherson Guardian badge.

Correct color example of the Macpherson clansman's badge.

Sterling Silver Macpherson clansman's badge.

Cluny's Arms.

Cluny's Banner.

Cluny's full matriculation.

Cluny's Standard.

Kind regards,

**Bugbear** · 28th June 10, 04:03 PM

That does cause me to wonder, as I did in another thread, what would the Lord Lyon have done with someone who had a tattoo of heraldry belonging to someone else, if the inked one were hauled before the court?

**creagdhubh** · 28th June 10, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by Bugbear

That does cause me to wonder, as I did in another thread, what would the Lord Lyon have done with someone who had a tattoo of heraldry belonging to someone else, if the inked one were hauled before the court?

I don't think in terms of someone necessarily being "hauled before the court", rather viewing the practice as a matter of personal honour, integrity, and doing the right thing. I would never have someone elses arms, or any type of legitimate heraldric device tattooed anywhere on my body just because it looks interesting, or because I had an indirect connection to it in some form or another. Just doesn't seem correct to me. Now if one is indeed an Armiger, that is a different story completely.