Balanced treatment of Ulster history

[davidlpope]

My Dad’s recollection of my Grandfather’s reckoning was the Methodists made inroads on the frontier by using lay pastors supported by circuit ministers who performed functions requiring ordination. According to his story the Presbyterians required all pastors to be educated at seminary. The Methodists simply had a better business model to keep up with the rapid westward expansion. Again, this was an explanation by my 80 year old grandfather (born 1881) as told to his son in law 50 years ago and then recently conveyed to me. The story would pertain to north central Arkansas, Searcy County.

Sounds reasonable to me, although the period I was referencing was much earlier, circa 1790-1840 and in the eastern states.

The hypothesis, though, is the same. The Second Great Awakening focused on emotional appeals through preaching, often by "lay" preachers, that lead to many conversions to Arminianism and Anabaptism, while the First Great Awakening was rooted in much more rigorous and defensible theological scholarship that originated with Puritan and Calvinist clergy within the Anglican and Presbyterian denominations.

Since this is OT, I'll stop there.

Cordially,

David

[macwilkin]

My Dad’s recollection of my Grandfather’s reckoning was the Methodists made inroads on the frontier by using lay pastors supported by circuit ministers who performed functions requiring ordination. According to his story the Presbyterians required all pastors to be educated at seminary. The Methodists simply had a better business model to keep up with the rapid westward expansion. Again, this was an explanation by my 80 year old grandfather (born 1881) as told to his son in law 50 years ago and then recently conveyed to me. The story would pertain to north central Arkansas, Searcy County.

That was one of the central arguements between auld & new lights in the First Great Awakening.

T.

[MacBean]

My Dad’s recollection of my Grandfather’s reckoning was the Methodists made inroads on the frontier by using lay pastors supported by circuit ministers who performed functions requiring ordination. According to his story the Presbyterians required all pastors to be educated at seminary. The Methodists simply had a better business model to keep up with the rapid westward expansion. Again, this was an explanation by my 80 year old grandfather (born 1881) as told to his son in law 50 years ago and then recently conveyed to me. The story would pertain to north central Arkansas, Searcy County.

I can't remember the name of the Methodist who converted so many in the Carolinas mid-1700's, but do remember that he covered a lot of ground, and was successful. Unless my memory fails me, I don't think he thought much of the "Irish" (Ulster Scots).

[MacBean]

Some of my ancestors are quintessential Scots-Irish including descendants of a Presbyterian minister in Northern Ireland (Adair) who sent his sons back to Edinburgh to be educated.

Very cool, I believe we just established that our families (Adair and Bean) both lived along Duncan's Creek in western South Carolina before the Revolution! They also served together in Colonel Williams' regiment in the subsequent War.

[macwilkin]

There are two Presbyterian ministers in our family tree, John Knox Williamson and John Calvin Williamson. They are balanced out by an Episcopalian rector named The Rev. Rob Roy Macgregor MacNulty.

T.

[McElmurry]

For a very good look at the Ulster background of the "Scots-Irish", I recommend James Leyburn's The Scotch-Irish: a social history, published by the University of North Carolina press. It was first published back in the 1960s, but it still stands the test of time, apart from the somewhat dated title. When folks are researching their Ulster-Scottish heritage, this is the first book I recommend to them.

Regards,

Todd

I was at my folks’ place in Idaho for the last week and they had a copy of Leyburn’s book. I found it to be well document and a good read. At just over 300 pages Leyburn provides a thorough introduction to the subject of the Scotch-Irish. Leyburn follows the Scotch-Irish from Scotland (75 pages) to Ireland (75 pages) to America (150 pages). The book begins with a description of life in Scotland around 1600 and ends in the USA just after the revolution. Thanks to Cajunscot for a great recommendation.

[Lallans]

Leyburn's belief basically was that the Scots Irish disappeared into the melting pot after the Revolution. Webb's book is an attempt to show how and why that did not happen. Really, I myself tend to think that in some areas, esp. in the ever-moving American frontier of the 19th century, the melting pot disappeared into the Scots Irish....

[macwilkin]

Leyburn's belief basically was that the Scots Irish disappeared into the melting pot after the Revolution. Webb's book is an attempt to show how and why that did not happen. Really, I myself tend to think that in some areas, esp. in the ever-moving American frontier of the 19th century, the melting pot disappeared into the Scots Irish....

Leyburn's narrative is the standard model for Ulster-Scots history. His arguement that the Scots-Irish culture transformed into an "American" culture, with elements of Scottish culture & customs just below the surface in everything from folklore to music.

The Ulster-Scots did absorb others, though -- English, Welsh, German Palantines, French Huegenots (The Crocketts & Seviers for example). The late WC Jamieson discusses this in his book "Ozark Country".

I'll have to look at Webb again, but Leyburn is certainly my first choice from an academic POV.

T.

[Mike_Oettle]

This has been a most interesting discussion, on occasion heated.
Not being American I have not followed these matters as closely as many of you folk have. But I concur for the most with Todd and Terry’s remarks.
With regard to the War of Independence, it does bear recalling that fully a third of the colonists in the 13 colonies remained loyal for one reason or another, and that a great many of them (you could perhaps tell me what proportion) emigrated afterwards, to the Bahamas, Canada or back to Britain.
One of them was Flora Macdonald, of Bonnie Prince Charlie fame.
Following the ’45 she was obliged to take an oath of loyalty to King George, as was the man she married, also a Macdonald.
On the strength of this oath they were permitted to emigrate to one of the southern colonies (I cannot for the moment recall whether it was Georgia or South Carolina).
And it was because of this oath that they found themselves unable to support the King’s enemies. For this they were very badly treated by those who supported independence.
After the war they found their position so intolerable that they were forced to return to Scotland at their own expense. As a result of the debt so incurred they died in penury.
The references to “victimology” strike a chord in South Africa, too, since both Afrikaners and black South Africans are fond of playing this tune, too.
Afrikaners will remind you of their sufferings in the concentration camps (for wives and children) and prisoner of war camps (far away from Africa) during the Boer War, and the unlawful annexation of their republics as British colonies.
And black South Africans talk of “300 years of oppression” when it has not all been repression, and for black people it is considerably less than 300 years.
They also harp on the slave trade, ignoring the fact that African rulers readily sold their own people, or made war on their neighbours in order to sell them, and so were at least as culpable as those who carried the slaves away.
This despite the fact that no South African people are known to have been enslaved at any stage.
Ranting against Britain for the slave trade is also a stock attitude, when it was Britain that ended the slave trade first, emancipated all its slaves in the colonies and sent its navy to capture slave vessels of all nations.
And following the American Civil War, the US joined Britain in suppressing the last slaving route, from West Africa to Cuba.
And to bring this back to Celtic culture, two final points:
1. While I am not of Irish descent, my wife’s great-grandfather was from Antrim.
2. The oldest Anglican parish in Port Elizabeth was founded by a priest of the Church of Ireland.
The Irish who took part in the settlement scheme of 1820 were initially separated from the English, Welsh and Scots in the Eastern Cape because it was feared that they would stir trouble. Instead they went to Clanwilliam, far away in the Western Cape.
Only in 1825 were they permitted to join their fellow settlers in the Eastern Cape. A few remained in Clanwilliam, however.
Regards,
Mike

[davidlpope]

One of them was Flora Macdonald, of Bonnie Prince Charlie fame.
Following the ’45 she was obliged to take an oath of loyalty to King George, as was the man she married, also a Macdonald.
On the strength of this oath they were permitted to emigrate to one of the southern colonies (I cannot for the moment recall whether it was Georgia or South Carolina)

It was actually North Carolina, in the Campbelltown/ Cross Creek Highland settlement that later became Fayetteville.

Somewhat related, the last Highland broadsword charge took place here in North Carolina at the Battle of Moore's Creek. The Loyalist Highland emigrants, were defeated by a largely English/ Scots-Irish group of Patriots. (BTW, What's the non-jingoist term to describe those who wanted to declare independance from GB? Rebels?)

David