Was Tartan ever actually banned?

[Bugbear]

I see what you mean.

All I know is that Highlanders were still wearing tartan and kilts after the bann, so it is a little off to think scraps of tartan were being hidden away and that is how they survived...

[Kilted-Marine]

Traditions like Kirkin of the tartan, Burns Dinner, Dipping the edge of a new kilt into scotch, and other new and old TRADITIONS, have to start somewhere

[macwilkin]

Traditions like Kirkin of the tartan, Burns Dinner, Dipping the edge of a new kilt into scotch, and other new and old TRADITIONS, have to start somewhere

No one is disputing that, Mark. The issue is that many groups, games, etc. are promoting a history of the Kirkin' service that simply has no basis in the historical record. As I mentioned earlier, the real history of the service, which was first held at the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church during the Second World War, is far more moving than the legend that has grown-up in the Diaspora communities in Canada, the USA and Australia. The Rev. Dr. Peter Marshall ("A Man Called Peter"), a Presbyterian minister from Coatbridge, is credited with being the originator of the service. I have of sermons from the original Kirkin', and no where does Dr. Marshall mention "the legend".

I have organized our society's Kirkin' for over a decade now, and I try to make it as close to Dr. Marshall's original intent as possible.

T.

[xman]

Thanks for setting me straight gents.

[Bugbear]

Untestable Hypothesis and Falsifiability - The Scientific Method has some five key steps to it...
1. Observation/Question
2. Hypothesis
3. Prediction
4. Experiment
5. Conclusion

One of the toughest parts of the Scientific Method is simply determining whether it's possible to design an experiment to test your hypothesis. If it IS possible to test it, and there are clear conditions for what counts as refuting your hypothesis, the hypothesis is called falsifiable, and this is a good thing in science. "Falsifiable" means the same thing as "testable," it doesn't mean "proven false." Yeah, it's confusing. So some examples may help.

Hypothesis: There are NO black swans.
Test: Look for a black swan.
Falsifiable? Yes
Potential Falsification: Finding a black swan.
Truth Status: False (there are black swans).

Hypothesis: There are pink elephants.
Test: Look for a pink elephant.
Falsifiable? No
Potential Falsification: None. If you looked around the whole world, maybe it was hiding in Japan while you were in New Zealand. If you saw the whole world simultaneously, maybe it's on Mars. Or another solar system. It's impossible to actually carry out the test.

Hypothesis: The First Kirkin of the tartan was done in the USA.
Test: Look for evidence that there was never one done before
Falsifiable? No
Potential Falsification: None. If you look at every possible source there is still a chance it happened but was not recorded

Truth Status: So far it appears false, but we're not sure. The statment "there is no such thing as a pink elephant" is a good example of something that a non-scientist would call a fact but scientists would say is unproven.

Kilted-Marine, that copied text should have been cited or a link provided.

http://modern-science.blogspot.com/2...hesis-and.html

No one is disputing that, Mark. The issue is that many groups, games, etc. are promoting a history of the Kirkin' service that simply has no basis in the historical record. As I mentioned earlier, the real history of the service, which was first held at the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church during the Second World War, is far more moving than the legend that has grown-up in the Diaspora communities in Canada, the USA and Australia. The Rev. Dr. Peter Marshall ("A Man Called Peter"), a Presbyterian minister from Coatbridge, is credited with being the originator of the service. I have of sermons from the original Kirkin', and no where does Dr. Marshall mention "the legend".

I have organized our society's Kirkin' for over a decade now, and I try to make it as close to Dr. Marshall's original intent as possible.

T.

cajunscot is saying that there is no known, peer reviewed evidence that it happened. It is, in that case, unlikely that the tradition came from the Proscription era. He also cited other evidence that made it even more unlikely.

He asked for credible evidence. If it were provided, and it was credible, I am sure he would reverse his position.

That's my take on this discussion. Hope I haven't made anyone angry. I'll bow out of the thread now.

[Kilted-Marine]

CajunScot

I was not trying to argue your point either. I understand where you are coming from, I was sort of suggesting that some traditions start in fact, move to fiction and end up as legend.

The question for ME is - "Is it important that people KNOW why they are doing something or is it more important that they are doing it"

Depending on the event the answer to that question may be different.

Kirkin of the tartan - Is to ask a blessing on the tartans (and those families which fall under them).
Does it REALLY matter when, how, why it started?
If a person never knows the real story - does it matter?

Just a few questions i have to ask myself

[macwilkin]

CajunScot

I was not trying to argue your point either. I understand where you are coming from, I was sort of suggesting that some traditions start in fact, move to fiction and end up as legend.

The question for ME is - "Is it important that people KNOW why they are doing something or is it more important that they are doing it"

Depending on the event the answer to that question may be different.

Kirkin of the tartan - Is to ask a blessing on the tartans (and those families which fall under them).
Does it REALLY matter when, how, why it started?
If a person never knows the real story - does it matter?

Just a few questions i have to ask myself

As a history instructor, I feel that it does matter, because the original intent of the service wasn't even to "bless" tartans, given that it was a Presbyterian minister who started it. Dr. Marshall was trying to rally Scottish-American organizations (he was a member of the St. Andrew's Societies of Atlanta and Washington DC) to raise money for an effort to relocate children in Glasgow and Edinburgh to the Highlands to escape Nazi bombing raids in a "Kirkin' of the tartans".

As an Epsicopalian, I have no problem with blessing tartans and the families they represent. My issue is with a inaccurate history of the service which is now accepted as "gospel" by many. As any native Scot will tell you, they have never heard or participated in such a service in the auld country. I personally believe the Scottish diaspora community should embrace the Kirkin' as our own tradition, and not try to create some romantic legend as a justification. To me, it's far more inspiring to have the descendants of Scottish immigrants helping the auld country during WWII than the legend that has sprung up.

I know a lot folks subscribe to the John Ford School of history -- "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend" -- while I love John Ford, as a historian, I fight against that way of thinking everyday.

T.

[davidlpope]

As a history instructor, I feel that it does matter, because the original intent of the service wasn't even to "bless" tartans, given that it was a Presbyterian minister who started it.

As an Epsicopalian, I have no problem with blessing tartans and the families they represent.

Todd,

Excellent point. As a Presbyterian, myself, I am always amazed at how many Presbyterian churches do a "Kirking of the Tartans" observance in which the tartans are "blessed". Knox is positively spinning in his grave!

David

[macwilkin]

Todd,

Excellent point. As a Presbyterian, myself, I am always amazed at how many Presbyterian churches do a "Kirking of the Tartans" observance in which the tartans are "blessed". Knox is positively spinning in his grave!

David

That's why when our St. Andrew's Society holds our annual service at a local Presbyterian Church, we tend to focus more on the Scottish roots of the Presbyterian Church. We rotate between that church and the Episcopal parish I attend, and each service is distinct in terms of liturgy, etc.

T.

[Bugbear]

As a history instructor, I feel that it does matter, because the original intent of the service wasn't even to "bless" tartans, given that it was a Presbyterian minister who started it. Dr. Marshall was trying to rally Scottish-American organizations (he was a member of the St. Andrew's Societies of Atlanta and Washington DC) to raise money for an effort to relocate children in Glasgow and Edinburgh to the Highlands to escape Nazi bombing raids in a "Kirkin' of the tartans".

As an Epsicopalian, I have no problem with blessing tartans and the families they represent. My issue is with a inaccurate history of the service which is now accepted as "gospel" by many. As any native Scot will tell you, they have never heard or participated in such a service in the auld country. I personally believe the Scottish diaspora community should embrace the Kirkin' as our own tradition, and not try to create some romantic legend as a justification. To me, it's far more inspiring to have the descendants of Scottish immigrants helping the auld country during WWII than the legend that has sprung up.

I know a lot folks subscribe to the John Ford School of history -- "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend" -- while I love John Ford, as a historian, I fight against that way of thinking everyday.

T.

Kind of sounds like folklore... I suppose it might be interesting to look at the ways folklore plays a role in how people of an era view their history.