Military Count

[Hothir Ethelnor]

To increase the number of pleats across a kilt you only need to decrease the width of the face of each pleat. military kilts are said to sometimes have pleat widths of less than 1/2"

It's quite simply really how to put more fabric in a kilt. Most civilian kilts made by bigger firms are made with economy in mind so they have standard pleat widths which are usually around 3/4" to 1" These kilts usually end up with nearer 7 yards than 8.

With a custom kiltmaker who doesn't keep a stock of fabric on hand you are more likely to end up with a real 8 Yard kilt.

Back to military pleating I think there may be a standard number of pleats put into each kilt. This number usually makes the yardage somewhere in the range of 8 Yards per finished kilt. The aprons being the only factor that will use more or less yardage. To make their standard number of pleats fit around a skinnier fellow they need only decrease the width of the face of each pleat somewhat.

[Zardoz]

Here's the question that's been in my head; Let's say I go to a kiltmaker and order a "real 8 Yard" kilt with a 42" waist in XYZ tartan pleated to the sett, and for example it comes back with a full 8 yards of tartan, 32 pleats, 3/4" reveal, 4" depth etc....

Now let's say my skinny friend with a 28 inch waist and my more robust friend with a 50 inch waist also order "8 Yard" kilts from the same place, in XYZ tartan pleated to the sett etc. What are the differences gonna be? If my skinny friend gets a full 8 yards of tartan in his kilt, where is all the fabric? Are the pleats going to be really deep? will there be less pleats, or the same amount of pleats with narrower reveals ? And the opposite for the bigger one?

[xman]

Here's the question that's been in my head; Let's say I go to a kiltmaker and order a "real 8 Yard" kilt with a 42" waist in XYZ tartan pleated to the sett, and for example it comes back with a full 8 yards of tartan, 32 pleats, 3/4" reveal, 4" depth etc....

Now let's say my skinny friend with a 28 inch waist and my more robust friend with a 50 inch waist also order "8 Yard" kilts from the same place, in XYZ tartan pleated to the sett etc. What are the differences gonna be? If my skinny friend gets a full 8 yards of tartan in his kilt, where is all the fabric? Are the pleats going to be really deep? will there be less pleats, or the same amount of pleats with narrower reveals ? And the opposite for the bigger one?

Especially if pleated to the sett the depth of the pleats must necessarily be equal unless there's some kilt maker magic I don't know about and I wouldn't be surprised. The difference would need to mostly be in the number of pleats and/or the width of their face.

I'm beginning to think that with the regimental weights, setting size could be in excess of 10 or even 12 inches and pleats could be to alternating stripes with 2.5" to 3" deep pleats and a 0.5" face. The illuminated should check my math and logic.

[Hothir Ethelnor]

Here's the question that's been in my head; Let's say I go to a kiltmaker and order a "real 8 Yard" kilt with a 42" waist in XYZ tartan pleated to the sett, and for example it comes back with a full 8 yards of tartan, 32 pleats, 3/4" reveal, 4" depth etc....

Now let's say my skinny friend with a 28 inch waist and my more robust friend with a 50 inch waist also order "8 Yard" kilts from the same place, in XYZ tartan pleated to the sett etc. What are the differences gonna be? If my skinny friend gets a full 8 yards of tartan in his kilt, where is all the fabric? Are the pleats going to be really deep? will there be less pleats, or the same amount of pleats with narrower reveals ? And the opposite for the bigger one?

First of all for the skinny one, a pleat width of 1/2 inch would be considered but usually with symmetrical tartans there are places where the tartan repeats itself more than once in a single sett repeat. These could be used to make deeper pleats with the same stripe on the outside as the portion of the sett they are masquerading as. this results in uneven pleat depth but very few people would notice and if someone is real set on a certain amount of yardage being used it's always a good option.

Here is a pic of a Scottish National kilt I made that illustrate a kilt pleated to the sett with "cheated" pleats to include more yardage.



For your wider friend, a pleat width of 1" is possible (I haven't checked any of the math so I don't know how exactly it would need to work out.) For really large guys you just have to order more tartan that's all there is to it.

[acolander]

Especially if pleated to the sett the depth of the pleats must necessarily be equal unless there's some kilt maker magic I don't know about and I wouldn't be surprised. The difference would need to mostly be in the number of pleats and/or the width of their face.

I'm beginning to think that with the regimental weights, setting size could be in excess of 10 or even 12 inches and pleats could be to alternating stripes with 2.5" to 3" deep pleats and a 0.5" face. The illuminated should check my math and logic.

Hi, Perhaps I can assist although I'm not a kilt maker, repairer perhaps.. but I have approx 12 military kilts at home (I'm at work right now) from nearly every regiment ranging in 32-34 to 40"+ waists, and can confirm that on average the pleat depth is from 2.5-3" dependiong upon pleat style w/ approx 3/4" to 1" reveal..

I can't remember off the top of my head the number of pleats per regiment, but I seem to remember that there is a set amount ranging from about 28-32 depeonding upon regiment.. I could be mistaken, but seem to remember that from somewhere..

If anyone is interested let me know and I can have a look later when home at the 2-3 A&SH kilts I have (one in my size 36", one in a W40 or 42", and one that is smaller) and provide a count to see if they all have the same number of pleats as well as pleat measurements.. I also have a couple BW & Gordon kilts that I could do the same.. All are actual military kilts, no repros, and range in age from approx 1947 to 1996 or thereabouts..

I can also provide pleat counts/measurements on military kilts for a few other regiments, ie London Scottish (2 kilts), HLI/RHF, Seaforth (2kilts, different waist sizes), QOCH, along with waist sizes if also interested to perhaps compare w/ others that may have also these kilts but in other sizes...

Just let me know what you want re the above and I'll proceed accordingly.

Cheers,
Christian

[Hothir Ethelnor]

All that info would be nice.

I'm interested in knowing (in case anyone ever wants a repro from me...)

[freddie]

I'm probably answering my own question here but I've always admired the MacKenzie tartan military pleated kilts. I love the way the white lines are drawn together in the fell to almost form a solid band of white. I've studied pictures of both Highland Light Infantry kilts (knife pleats) and Seaforth Highlanders kilts (box pleats) and the effect is much more pronounced in the Seaforth's. Is this due to the box pleating? or is it because there is a slight differance in the tartans. Highland Light Infantry used Highland No 5 tartan whereas the Seaforth's used Highland No 2.

[The Wizard of BC]

Let me try to add a little to this topic.

The first thing you need to keep in mind is that when making a kilt, almost any kilt, it is not the waist size that the kiltmaker uses to determine the pleats. It is the Hip measurement.
This is the largest part of the Kilt.

So let's say for example the person has a 42" Hip measurement. About half of that is going to be pleats and about half aprons. (were not taking into consideration splits here, just using some numbers to make it easy to understand).

This means that the kilt is going to have approx. 24" of pleated area. Using the Military Kilts I have seen and made and Barb's Book as the guide, the average pleat reveal (That part of the pleat you see) is somewhere around 1/2" and 1" with 5/8" to 7/8" being most common simply because that size seems to look and swish the best to modern eyes.

24 inches of pleated area divided by 1/2" will result in 48 pleats.
24 inches of pleated area divided by 5/8" will result in 38 or 39 pleats.
24 inches of pleated area divided by 3/4" will result in 32 pleats.

Easy arithmetic so far. But now we take into consideration the Tartan Pattern.

Pleat depth (or the part of the pleat you don't see) is a function of the size of the Tartan pattern. The larger the Tartan pattern the deeper the pleats. (We're not talking about cheating pleats or any other specific cases, just some basics.)

Many Tartans have a Sett of somewhere between 6" and 7" Some are smaller and some are larger. And of course some are huge.
If we are talking about pleating to the Stripe and we use a Tartan where we use the same stripe, one stripe per Sett, this means that each pleat uses one Sett of the fabric.

So, if the kilt is made with 32 pleats and the Sett of the Tartan is 6.5" then the amount of fabric used for the pleats will be approx. 208" or 5.77 yards. Add to that the fabric needed to make 2 - 24" wide aprons, some deep and reverse pleats and the total need for a Kilt with 32 pleats is right around 8 yards.

Most kiltmakers today will start with 4 yards of double width fabric, rip it in half and join the two pieces to get the required 8 yards.
They then lay out what they need for the two aprons on each end.
Whatever is left in the middle will be what is used for the pleats.
They will then adjust the width of pleat reveal to use up that amount of fabric.

On small hipped people less fabric is needed. On larger people more fabric is needed. Most kiltmakers I know use as a rule of thumb a hip size of 45" to determine whether they order 4 yards or 4.5 yards.

Now 4.5 yards of double width fabric ripped and joined will result in 9 yards of fabric. That is not where the phrase "The whole nine yards" comes from though. In fact no one is sure where that phrase comes from. People who research words and phrases have been trying to discover where the phrase started and so far no one has figured it out.
(google the series of newspaper articles titled "The Straight Scoop" )

I hope this helps you understand the basics. Each kilt is different and each Tartan has its own unique characteristics , but the basics of all kilts are pretty much the same.

[OC Richard]

I've owned and worn military kilts (back when my waist was 29 inches!!!)
and they do have a lot of pleats given the small size and are very heavy.

One thing to keep in mind is that military OR kilt tartan is usually a very large sett size, often 9 inches or so. So there are a lot of narrow pleats and each pleat is very deep.

Since they're pleated to the line they MUST have a full repeat of the tartan for each pleat.

Here's the back of a Black Watch kilt and an Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders kilt:




The pleating to the line is more obvious on the kilts of the Gordons and Camerons (pleated to the yellow line).

[xman]

... where the phrase "The whole nine yards" comes from though. In fact no one is sure where that phrase comes from. People who research words and phrases have been trying to discover where the phrase started and so far no one has figured it out.
(google the series of newspaper articles titled "The Straight Scoop" )

I'm sure you mean The Straight Dope.