Heraldic Beasts?

[Bugbear]

I brought up Spain because I seem to remember something about people living in former Spanish territories being able to receive grants of Spanish arms.

I don't know for sure if that is the case and I am probably saying it wrong, but I live and was born in a former Spanish territory.

[macwilkin]

I brought up Spain because I seem to remember something about people living in former Spanish territories being able to receive grants of Spanish arms.

I don't know for sure if that is the case and I am probably saying it wrong, but I live and was born in a former Spanish territory.

Ted,

That was probably something I wrote, as I have read that myself. I am currently residing in former Spanish Louisiana, so I'm in the same boat, so to speak.

T.

[Bugbear]

Ted,

That was probably something I wrote, as I have read that myself. I am currently residing in former Spanish Louisiana, so I'm in the same boat, so to speak.

T.

Thanks for confirming that, cajunscot.

I was born in an areaa that also used to belong to the Republic of Texas... But I'm not sure Texas grants arms.

[Cygnus]

Establishing Arms in Spain:

Arms in the Kingdom of Spain are not granted by an heraldic authority anymore. The Spanish College of Arms assists individuals who wish to establish new arms in Spain by executing a notarial act, and registering the Coat of Arms in the appropriate registers.

The following people may apply:

-Spanish Nationals or permanent residents in Spain.

-People of Spanish ancestry.

-People living in the former realms and territories of the Spanish Crown.

-People from Portugal and the Italian regions of Sicily, Parma and Naples.

-People from any nation of the American Continent.

-People from the former Holy Roman Empire may apply on a case to case basis.

-People with significant ties to Spain may apply on a case to case basis.

Looks like it doesn't even have to be a former Spanish territory as they seem to cover the entire American Continent.

I don't know how "official" the arms registered with the Spanish College of Heraldry are, but it does all seem very legitimate.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

To be valid, a grant of arms must be substantive. Generally speaking substantive grants are made by sovereign entities through the appropriate governmental department. Arms granted by the Lord Lyon and the Chief Herald of Ireland are substantive, as each of these offices are, ultimately, a branch of government.

The exception to grants made by governments are those substantive grants made by private bodies which operate by and with the approval of the government. The College of Arms in England and the now vacant office of Cronista Rey de Armas in Spain are perhaps the best known private bodies engaged in the devisal, granting, and recording of arms.

In both instances the College of Arms and the Office of Cronista Rey de Armas grant without the objection of the head of state. In England the College of Arms is a private body regulated by the Duke of Norfolk. In Spain the modern office of Cronista was created during the period of the Franco government and was, as I understand it, regarded as a department within the Spanish Ministry of Justice.

Every substantive heraldic office records the arms that they grant, although it must be borne in mind that they all follow slightly different procedures in the granting process. This variation of process, allied to the differing social customs between nations, has led some less-than-knowledgeable individuals to suggest that only British or Irish grants were truly substantive. Nothing could be farther from the truth. No heraldic authority has a monopoly of jurisdiction beyond its national borders, although each has the ability to grant arms on a case by case basis "over seas".

As all of North America and South America (with the exception of Brazil) at one time belonged to Spain, the Cronista has quite reasonably included these territories in his "imperial" mandate.

As the current Spanish College of Arms lacks a substantive position vis-a-vis the Spanish government or crown, it functions more along the lines of a graphic design studio which then records their work-for-hire on behalf of their clients.

[Bugbear]

And what of the U.S. military's heraldic athority, as brought up earlier?

[macwilkin]

And what of the U.S. military's heraldic athority, as brought up earlier?

The Institute of Heraldry has a long and distinguished record of support to the United States Army. Its roots were firmly planted in 1919 when President Woodrow Wilson directed the creation of the Heraldic Program Office under the War Department General Staff. Its purpose was to take responsibility for the coordination and approval of coats of arms and other insignia for Army organizations. By the end of World War II, its role expanded to include the other military services. In 1957 Public Law 85-263 directed the Secretary of the Army to furnish heraldic services to all branches of the federal government. The Institute's wide range of heraldic services include decorations, flags, streamers, agency seals, coats of arms, badges, and other forms of official emblems and insignia.

-- http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/

Also see: http://www.aiga.org/content.cfm/the-...heraldry?pff=2

A very interesting interview with a member of the Institute of Heraldry.

T.

http://www.qmfound.com/army_heraldry.htm

[Bugbear]

Yes, that is an interesting interview. And the last link to the US Army Quartermaster Foundation has lots of interesting information, too.

I also had to go back and look through the American Heraldry Society information for a few things.

[Mark E.]

Perhaps you could put a name to these arms and tell us how you came by them?

I only ask because the crest you've mentioned as belonging to your family-- and as seen in your avatar-- is most commonly associated (in Ireland) with the Kelley family, while the name "Patrick" is most commonly associated (in Scotland) with the clan Lamont.

It's the Pogue (otherwise known as Pollock). A lesser group, granted, and mainly associated with the Maxwells. My grandmother was a Pogue, her father, grandfather, and great grandfather, and so on, were Pogues. We came from North Ireland (where there is a village named Eskra, believe it or not), and before that, Scotland, near Renfrew. Before the Clearances, our name was written into records as ghillies/huntsmen to the Maxwells. We were at the Great Hunt of Aboyne, and stood with James in the '15. Before that, varied members of note have stood with Mary, Queen of Scots (lost), and later, with Queen Anne (one fellow got a knighthood from that one).

Mark

[Mike_Oettle]

MacMillan of Rathdown’s categorisation of the College of Arms as a private institution is not entirely correct, since its officers are held to be part of the royal household.
To my knowledge the Spanish Cronistas were not regarded as belonging to the royal household, but I could be wrong on that point.
While the Lord Lyon is a judge within the Scottish judicial system and is paid out of the public purse, the other heralds of Lyon Court subsist on their fees and on their private means.
In this respect they are not too different from the officers of the College of Arms.
Regards,
Mike