The Varieties of Traditional Experience: To Jabot or not To Jabot

[JerseyLawyer]

Follow this link for the Ceangail.

http://www.jbyous.com/CelticNeckwear.html

I couldn't hate it more.

Anyway, on the actual topic, while I think one could wear a jabot with a closed doublet to a black tie affair, it would be somewhat overdressing. The doublet and jabot is white tie attire.

Something I do like (though I can't claim to have worn it) is the cravat with a doublet. And I don't mean the big squishy tie thing that seems so popular among certain UK highland wear suppliers, more like a riding stock.

Here, from Highland Clans, Ltd.:



It does strike me as slightly Regency, but then again, a jabot strikes me as more than slightly Georgian.

[CMcG]

In my humble opinion the jabot is not black tie equivalent and would be best not worn at black tie events, although I accept that some do. At white tie events then most certainly.

Anyway, on the actual topic, while I think one could wear a jabot with a closed doublet to a black tie affair, it would be somewhat overdressing. The doublet and jabot is white tie attire.

Something I do like (though I can't claim to have worn it) is the cravat with a doublet. And I don't mean the big squishy tie thing that seems so popular among certain UK highland wear suppliers, more like a riding stock.

Here, from Highland Clans, Ltd.:

If the OP doesn't mind, perhaps we can expand the discussion a bit to include general neck tie options between black and white tie.

I thought I read somewhere that a doublet and jabot could be worn for both black and white tie? I agree, however, with Jock Scot and Jersey Lawyer that it seems more appropriate for full white tie.

Now what about that riding stock/Highland cravat? Where does it fit? And how is it different from a white Ascot?

Also, what about a white bow tie instead of a jabot for white tie formal? Is it done and, if so, with what jacket/waistcoat?

I have to admit I'd prefer to not wear a jabot, though I think some people (Ancienne Alliance amongst others) do it magnificently. I'm rather interested in the second half of this thread's title "not to jabot."

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Also, what about a white bow tie instead of a jabot for white tie formal? Is it done and, if so, with what jacket/waistcoat?

A white bow tie and (usually) white waistcoat will transform any open coatee or doublet (Prince Charile, Regulation Doublet, etc.) into white tie attire. Strictly speaking, with civilian attire, a black waistcoat should not be worn with white tie. While tartan and coloured waistcoats may be worn with black tie, the safer option is to stick with the white waistcoat when the invitation stipulates "White tie, Highland attire preferred".

[MacCathmhaoil]

Generally if it is a white tie event I wear a jabot with my Sheriffmuir and if it is a black tie affair I will wear a stock tie in either black or white. I personally feel that the jabot is a bit too formal for a black tie event!

[JSFMACLJR]

Just to throw fuel on the fire...it is perfectly acceptable for black bow ties to be worn with the kilt for white tie events. Has been so for a long, long time!

I believe the wearing of a white bow tie with the kilt is a custom followed by gentlemen from Perthshire. One rarely sees others doing so.

[Bugbear]

If the OP doesn't mind, perhaps we can expand the discussion a bit to include general neck tie options between black and white tie.

I thought I read somewhere that a doublet and jabot could be worn for both black and white tie? I agree, however, with Jock Scot and Jersey Lawyer that it seems more appropriate for full white tie.

Now what about that riding stock/Highland cravat? Where does it fit? And how is it different from a white Ascot?

Also, what about a white bow tie instead of a jabot for white tie formal? Is it done and, if so, with what jacket/waistcoat?

I have to admit I'd prefer to not wear a jabot, though I think some people (Ancienne Alliance amongst others) do it magnificently. I'm rather interested in the second half of this thread's title "not to jabot."

Just to throw fuel on the fire...it is perfectly acceptable for black bow ties to be worn with the kilt for white tie events. Has been so for a long, long time!

I believe the wearing of a white bow tie with the kilt is a custom followed by gentlemen from Perthshire. One rarely sees others doing so.

* raises an eyebrow *

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Just to throw fuel on the fire...it is perfectly acceptable for black bow ties to be worn with the kilt for white tie events. Has been so for a long, long time!

I believe the wearing of a white bow tie with the kilt is a custom followed by gentlemen from Perthshire. One rarely sees others doing so.

I believe it was the custom in Perthshire to only wear white tie.

Those who are kilted and who wear black tie to white tie events seem to be following the custom of some military mess dress, rather than civilian standards of attire. White tie is white tie, and that's what should properly be worn, unless one is in uniform and their service regulations decree otherwise.

I think the confusion has arisen as a result of the relaxing of dress standards at Royal events, when during the Second World War HM King George VI gave permission for dinner jackets to be worn on formal occasions by gentlemen unable to obtain formal evening clothes due to rationing, and other exigencies of war.

[Cygnus]

I believe it was the custom in Perthshire to only wear white tie.

Those who are kilted and who wear black tie to white tie events seem to be following the custom of some military mess dress, rather than civilian standards of attire. White tie is white tie, and that's what should properly be worn, unless one is in uniform and their service regulations decree otherwise.
...

Those are my sentiments as well, though not for the same reasons - not everyone is familiar with traditional Highland attire and some might perceive the black bowtie as an unintended faux pas rather than proper for wear with the kilt.

And while the tie ought to be white, I have seen it done and have no qualms with wearing a black waistcoat with a white bowtie, suitable jacket, and kilt at white tie events.

[JSFMACLJR]

I believe it was the custom in Perthshire to only wear white tie.

Those who are kilted and who wear black tie to white tie events seem to be following the custom of some military mess dress, rather than civilian standards of attire. White tie is white tie, and that's what should properly be worn, unless one is in uniform and their service regulations decree otherwise.

I think the confusion has arisen as a result of the relaxing of dress standards at Royal events, when during the Second World War HM King George VI gave permission for dinner jackets to be worn on formal occasions by gentlemen unable to obtain formal evening clothes due to rationing, and other exigencies of war.

We may have gone over this before, Scott. It is a bit puzzling that most gentlemen wearing the kilt to THE Highland balls ( and the Royal Caledonian Ball in London ) wear a black tie. Men not in Highland dress MUST wear a tail coat and white tie. This doesn't seem to be a "modern" trend. Here is a photograph of The Hon Andrew Elphinstone--a cousin of HM The Queen--at the Callie in 1938.


Your theory about civilians following mess dress regulations and wearing black ties may have some validity. I do know from personal experience that most men wear black ties with the kilt to white tie events. I don't. I wear a jabot; occasionally a white tie. Still though, it is odd how this anomoly is commonplace.

PS. Of course there is this photograph:
two of the Royal Dukes at this State Banquet are wearing black bow ties to the whitest of white tie events!

[creagdhubh]

just to throw fuel on the fire...it is perfectly acceptable for black bow ties to be worn with the kilt for white tie events. Has been so for a long, long time!

I believe the wearing of a white bow tie with the kilt is a custom followed by gentlemen from perthshire. One rarely sees others doing so.

Exactly!!!