celtic confederate jackets worm with kilts

[Downunder Kilt]

The photo itself isn't offensive to this former reenactor; what would offend me is if someone wearing it claimed it was authentic to 1861-65 in front of the general public.

T.

Totally agree with you there cajunscot, there is enough misinformation out there about history without people adding to it on purpose. I like the jacket only from a piece of clothing point of view, without its historical significance, if you get what I mean

[Woodsheal]

The cold steel for you secessionist rebels!



Sorry; couldn't resist...!

[macwilkin]

Post deleted.

[EldarKinSlayer]

***********

[macwilkin]

300,000 Yankees lie stiff in Southern dust!

And I honour their memory, as well as the memory of their gallant adversaries, now united as Americans all, every Memorial Day.

My apologies for offending your sensibilities. I should not do what has been done to me, namely people insulting my ancestors who fought for a cause they believed to be right. I will delete my previous post.

T.

[SlackerDrummer]

I'm not so sure....case in point:

Terry, you make a good point. I am bent out of shape. There is no Confederate army any more and for some reason, people think that gives them justification do whatever they want with the uniform. Try this one on for size. Go down to the VA and ask any one of the men down there how they would feel about you putting on an army dress coat from WWII, the Korean War, or the Vietnam War and going to a ball. Do you think they'd be honored by this show of support or do you think they'd find it a mockery. I've never served in the Armed Forces. How would any of the active duty servicemen or women or veterans on this forum feel about me putting on Marine Corps dress blues and going to a party? When you put on a Confederate uniform for whatever purpose (whether to reenact or attend a fancy ball) you are portraying a Confederate soldier, real or imagined, so it should be done right. When, in the name of "honoring" your ancestors, you make a mockery of mine, I find it insulting.

Who's this "we" you speak of?
The kilt police?

Well, I haven't been on this forum that long, but I have been doing my best to read it extensively. When I typed "we" my intent was those on this forum who admire the Highland garment known as the kilt. The Confederate Memorial tartan kilt is a Highland garment. It isn't a utilikilt or one of the modern incarnations of the garment. In retrospect, I meant those of us with taste. My family, most of them, have been in the Americas since long before the American Revolution. Most in North Carolina. I wear the Carolina tartan kilt. I have replaced all the buttons on my black Argyle jacket and waistcoat with silver versions of the North Carolina state seal buttons as worn by NC regiments during the Civil War. I do this to Honor my Heritage.

The cold steel for you secessionist rebels!



Sorry; couldn't resist...!

On a completely unrelated topic, why is it that the Yankees never seem to die in reenactments? I was at Gettysburg a few years ago and noticed that only about 5% of the Union forces went down. My brother is a reenactor with the NC 26th and says it's that way everywhere they go. He says they don't want to get their fancy uniforms dirty.

[BoldHighlander]

Terry, you make a good point. I am bent out of shape. There is no Confederate army any more and for some reason, people think that gives them justification do whatever they want with the uniform. Try this one on for size. Go down to the VA and ask any one of the men down there how they would feel about you putting on an army dress coat from WWII, the Korean War, or the Vietnam War and going to a ball. Do you think they'd be honored by this show of support or do you think they'd find it a mockery. I've never served in the Armed Forces. How would any of the active duty servicemen or women or veterans on this forum feel about me putting on Marine Corps dress blues and going to a party? When you put on a Confederate uniform for whatever purpose (whether to reenact or attend a fancy ball) you are portraying a Confederate soldier, real or imagined, so it should be done right. When, in the name of "honoring" your ancestors, you make a mockery of mine, I find it insulting.

You have every right to your opinion, but in the end it is just your opinion.

I personally do not see any intent to make a mockery of my (or their) ancestors. If, on the other hand, the intent was not honourable, then that would be different. That is my opinion, for what little its worth.

On your VA analogy: our own Riverkilt wears a reproduction of a WWII RAF service jacket with his RAF kilt. He even marched in a recent Veteran's Day parade wearing this attire. I don't believe Ron served in the RAF, but as I recall he wears it to honour his father who did. Is he making a mockery of his father's service, (or of any other RAF's veterans)? Do the vet's he's met while wearing said attire feel mocked or insulted? Why don't we ask Ron?
(and in the end does Ron really care about yours, or even my opinion regarding his choice or reasons for wearing his RAF jacket? I very much doubt it.)

Or how about the recent thread about the Swinging Six (the sporran of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders), in paticular the masked badger version.
I was of the opinion that a civilian version was fine to wear, but leave the military version for the guys serving (or for historical reenactment purposes). In that thread one of our newer members (a current serving officer with the A&SH's) mentioned that since the amalgamation into the Royal Regt of Scotland, that the wearing of the swinging six has ceased. He encouraged the civilian wearing of the full mask badger swinging six as a way of honouring this old tradition.
Now, what am I to make of that? Should I feel concerned about making a mockery of a very proud Highland Regiment, and possibly insulting an old jock, when I have the blessing of (currently) serving member of said regiment to wear this former uniform item (once reserved for NCO's & Officers of the Argylls)?

It's all in the eye of the beholder I suppose. And as I said earlier, its really just our own individual opinion, which in the end doesn't amount to much.

Oh, incidentally, the local air museum had their annual ball (always with a period theme). The theme two yrs ago? WWII. Those who didn't go in period civilian dress were in military dress. There was also a few WWII vets there, all of whom were thrilled by the honour paid to them. Last years ball was the Viet Nam war, and (you guessed it) a large number of the attendees (many not even born until well after the war) wore the uniform (including some Class A's). There were also plenty of vets present.....on both occasions none felt insulted or mocked.

I wonder why? (...just maybe they recognized the intent of the organizers /participants, and in turn felt honoured by it? )

[SlackerDrummer]

Oh, incidentally, the local air museum had their annual ball (always with a period theme). The theme two yrs ago? WWII. Those who didn't go in period civilian dress were in military dress. There was also a few WWII vets there, all of whom were thrilled by the honour paid to them. Last years ball was the Viet Nam war, and (you guessed it) a large number of the attendees (many not even born until well after the war) wore the uniform (including some Class A's). There were also plenty of vets present.....on both occasions none felt insulted or mocked.

I wonder why? (...just maybe they recognized the intent of the organizers /participants, and in turn felt honoured by it? )

I have said in at least two of my posts in this thread: Wear the uniform and do it well. I don't find your example to be at all inconsistent with my point of view. Wearing a uniform to a themed event is fine. My suggestions were to wear a (part of a) uniform to a formal ball. I apologize for not qualifying that. And putting a kilt with a Confederate uniform is NOT wearing the uniform. Those uniforms did not include kilts.

However, just as others have stated there are no set rules on how to display ones heritage.

Not picking on you GaRebel211, you just provided the quote I needed to reference. (Thanks for participating in the conversation.)

My point is simply this: If you wear a kilt with a Confederate uniform, you are in fact NOT displaying your heritage. It wasn't done by your (collective) ancestors or mine. Where does one draw the line? On which side of the line are the lederhosen of Germany and Austria? There were certainly plenty of Germans here and fighting on both sides of war.

HERITAGE
1 : property that descends to an heir
2 a : something transmitted by or acquired from a predecessor : legacy, inheritance
b : tradition
3 : something possessed as a result of one's natural situation or birth : birthright <the nation's heritage of tolerance>

TRADITION
1 a : an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom)
b : a belief or story or a body of beliefs or stories relating to the past that are commonly accepted as historical though not verifiable
2 : the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction
3 : cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions
4 : characteristic manner, method, or style <in the best liberal tradition>

It is certainly only my opinion, but I think there are times to honor our Scots heritage and times to honor our Confederate/Federal heritage. And I think mixing the two of them up serves neither to the best of one's ability. To wear the kilt with the uniform at a reenactment I believe we can all agree is unthinkable. Why then is it okay elsewhere? Is it any less false because it isn't a living history situation? Worn in a parade, what is the message the public takes away? If one is serious about honoring one's heritage, then one must accept responsibility for being honest about it.

[macwilkin]

I think Kenneth raises an excellent point in his last post:

My point is simply this: If you wear a kilt with a Confederate uniform, you are in fact NOT displaying your heritage. It wasn't done by your (collective) ancestors or mine. Where does one draw the line? On which side of the line are the lederhosen of Germany and Austria? There were certainly plenty of Germans here and fighting on both sides of war.

Well said. Many Americans of German and Austrian heritage served in both World Wars, and in the case of the First World War, saw their heritage and traditions persecuted by "loyal" Americans at home that banned German language classes and changed sauerkraut into liberty cabbage.

This point reminded me of how some, such as the late Grady McWhiney attempted to claim Scottish & Irish heritage for only the South; his books such as "Cracker Culture" and "Attack & Die" seem to imply that there were no "Celtic" peoples fighting for the North, when in fact there were -- the Irish were second to the Germans in terms of Northern ethnic regiments, and the Scots, especially in Scotland, tended to favour the Northern cause as well. Some of my own Scottish and Ulster-Scottish ancestors settled in Iowa before the War, and loyally served their new home in non-ethnic Iowa regiments. They certainly carried their Burns with them, but they didn't see their service as a display of ethnicity per se.

That being said, I think others have raised some very valid points well in this discussion, especially Terry.

T.

[BoldHighlander]

That being said, I think others have raised some very valid points well in this discussion, especially Terry.

And for my part, to say anything more on the subject right now makes me feel like a dog chasing it's own tail

So I'll respectfully remain silent

However, it is an interesting discussion, with lots of good points being made all the way around. I will be watching how it develops (& who knows?) :mrgreen:

Cheers!