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2nd February 11, 11:24 AM
#1
 Originally Posted by xman
I've always believed tennis balls are yellow and everybody insists they're green. Probably not my monitor. Probably my brain.
There's something sewn into the top left corner of the last picture.
And that "loop" is embroidered initials. it appears to be I C or L C perhaps.
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2nd February 11, 12:57 PM
#2
 Originally Posted by Hothir Ethelnor
And that "loop" is embroidered initials. it appears to be I C or L C perhaps.
It's I C but we have no idea to whom that referred.
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4th February 11, 03:45 AM
#3
It has similarities to the Fraser and Robertson tartans. It's very close to the Grant of Edinchat tartan except for the proportion of red to blue & green. The closest match appears to be a formerly unnamed tartan from Glen Buchet (Glenbuchat?) ca. 1750. The specimen is hard tartan, 28 x 48 inches. The tartan was adopted by the Countess of Mar and recorded in the Lyon Court Book in 1992, being given the name "Red Mar".
I didn't know you could place restrictions on an old tartan you didn't design or commission.
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4th February 11, 05:39 AM
#4
 Originally Posted by Morris at Heathfield
The closest match appears to be a formerly unnamed tartan from Glen Buchet (Glenbuchat?) ca. 1750. The specimen is hard tartan, 28 x 48 inches. The tartan was adopted by the Countess of Mar and recorded in the Lyon Court Book in 1992, being given the name " Red Mar".
Good Eyes! These colors remind me of the tartan worn by the 78th Fraser Highlander reenactors- the green is lime, the blue navy, and the red orange.
 Originally Posted by Morris at Heathfield
I didn't know you could place restrictions on an old tartan you didn't design or commission. 
I'm not sure what you mean by placing restrictions, but it has been common practice in the past for "Chiefs of the Name" to adopt existing tartans as their own. Many of the WOB trade setts were adopted by clans (Matt reminded me of the interesting story of the MacPherson tartan this past weekend) when it became fashionable for each clan to have a tartan. This practice still continues: Duncan Paisley of Westerlea adopted the existing Paisley district tartan for his followers when he was confirmed as chief of the name; Mark Harden of Cowdenknowes adopted WOB unnamed tartan #1 as the "Harden" tartan a few years ago when he assumed the barony.
David
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4th February 11, 06:38 AM
#5
 Originally Posted by Morris at Heathfield
It has similarities to the Fraser and Robertson tartans. It's very close to the Grant of Edinchat tartan except for the proportion of red to blue & green. The closest match appears to be a formerly unnamed tartan from Glen Buchet (Glenbuchat?) ca. 1750. The specimen is hard tartan, 28 x 48 inches. The tartan was adopted by the Countess of Mar and recorded in the Lyon Court Book in 1992, being given the name " Red Mar".
I didn't know you could place restrictions on an old tartan you didn't design or commission. 
Well found. It is the original piece from Glenbuchat. Now, what the cloth tell you?
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4th February 11, 10:42 AM
#6
According to the tartan notes, the tartan is restricted and may only be worn by those of the name Mar and those granted permission to wear it by the Countess of Mar. That's different from a clan chief adopting an existing tartan to represent his clan while leaving its status otherwise unchanged. Members of the Royal Regiment of Scotland don't need the Duke of Argyll's permission to wear their tartan. Of course, I guess you could say the Red Mar tartan was an "orphan" until the Countess of Mar adopted it, but I don't see how the Countess of Mar can claim rights akin to copyright on the pattern, when it was created over 250 years ago by an unknown weaver.
Regarding the cloth, it seems rather ordinary to me. The colors resemble other 18th-century tartans. I see folds and a few flaws, the aforementioned initials, and a hem on the top (according to the orientation of the pictures) sewn with red thread. On the right is a rather narrow red herringbone selvage. I'm guessing the cloth has been cut on the right side. If the right side was also a selvage, that would be unusual, as there is no herringbone pattern, and the weft pattern isn't centered. However, the dimensions given in the tartan notes would suggest that this was just one half of a plaid. Or perhaps a philabeg, as it isn't attached to the other half.
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5th February 11, 12:48 AM
#7
 Originally Posted by Morris at Heathfield
According to the tartan notes, the tartan is restricted and may only be worn by those of the name Mar and those granted permission to wear it by the Countess of Mar. That's different from a clan chief adopting an existing tartan to represent his clan while leaving its status otherwise unchanged. Members of the Royal Regiment of Scotland don't need the Duke of Argyll's permission to wear their tartan. Of course, I guess you could say the Red Mar tartan was an "orphan" until the Countess of Mar adopted it, but I don't see how the Countess of Mar can claim rights akin to copyright on the pattern, when it was created over 250 years ago by an unknown weaver.
You're absolutely right about the ability to restrict this sett. Someone has misinformed the Chief which is strange as it was me that recommended the sett to her and I would have been quite explicit about her inability to control the tartan. She was mote taken by the idea of the Tribe adopting something old rather than 'inventing' a new one. Whilst she can pronounce on its use as Red Mar that obviously doesn't stop anyone wearing it as an unnamed C18th sett. Years ago, probably before it was adopted by the Countess, I made someone a joined plaid in this tartan.
Regarding the cloth, it seems rather ordinary to me. The colors resemble other 18th-century tartans. I see folds and a few flaws, the aforementioned initials, and a hem on the top (according to the orientation of the pictures) sewn with red thread. On the right is a rather narrow red herringbone selvage. I'm guessing the cloth has been cut on the right side. If the right side was also a selvage, that would be unusual, as there is no herringbone pattern, and the weft pattern isn't centered. However, the dimensions given in the tartan notes would suggest that this was just one half of a plaid. Or perhaps a philabeg, as it isn't attached to the other half.
You're doing well although you've made one major mis-diagnosis. I'll let this run a while longer as there are things yet to determine.
Last edited by figheadair; 5th February 11 at 12:55 AM.
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5th February 11, 01:57 AM
#8
Is my major misdiagnosis that, after all these old tartan pieces I've seen, I'm still thinking of the way modern tartans are woven? It occurred to me after I typed that last post that, if a plaid were woven single-width, then cut in half weftwise, and the two halves joined along one selvage, in order to preserve the tartan pattern, it wouldn't make sense to center the tartan pattern on the loom. Instead, one would want one selvage to occur on the edge of a check and the other to occur right in the middle of a check.
I know I've read all about it before (and seen photographs), but for some reason I got it confused with the way modern kilts are made from double-width fabric.
I still think it's half a plaid or a philabeg. On closer inspection I see two or three red threads running across the top of the piece. I'm assuming the thread at the "C" is where the fabric is hemmed, but the hem is not exactly visible from this side. Is the "IC" intended to be visible when the piece is worn? The way I visualize it, the initials would be on the left apron when worn.
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