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  1. #5
    Join Date
    8th February 04
    Location
    3389 Schuylkill Rd, Spring City, PA 19475
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    EDIT... I just re-read my post after posting it. Mods, if this has gone too far OT, then please feel free to remove or start a new thread.



    I don't think I need to state the obvious, but I disagree with much of what you've stated here. However, this is what makes forums so valuable... when people can differ openly and remain civil about it.

    As a business owner and kilt maker I can only state the industry trends that I see within my own business and through the network of manufacturers (in Scotland) and other kilt makers (both in America and Scotland) and business owners I speak to. I'm not sure where your experience on the matter lies, but these are mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
    I don't doubt that budget kilts can be a gateway. But I can tell you from forty years of experience and a library full of books on the subject that there are not "2 schools of thought". Or if there are it makes no difference to the ultimate outcome.
    I don't think that cheaper cars will ever completely destroy the desire (and market) for high end vehicles. Similarly, I don't see less expensive kilts ever completely destroying the need for high end kilts. Would high end kilts be more plentiful if there were NO kilts under $500? Maybe. However, I would also estimate that without a counter weight of low priced alternatives, the price of wool kilts might have risen steadily without being checked.

    Quote Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
    Your customers represent only a subset of the necessary demand to keep a woolen mill in business. And of your customers, the ones who upgrade are only a smaller sub-set.

    What's more, again drawing from an industry wide experience, as well as comments made on this forum and others, most people won't upgrade. Perhaps they start out determined to buy a better kilt next time. But in fact, I suspect that fully 80% of those will eventually abandon kilt wearing altogether or justify the wearing of MUGs as a "living tradition" or an "evolution" of kilt traditions or simply as "affordable."
    I would completely agree. My business is not the only one making kilts and I would not be able to support a mill by myself. That being said, I do speak with many of the manufacturers and other kilt makers to get a sense of where they think the industry is at, is going, is having trouble, is experiencing growth, etc. You'd be shocked what some people will tell you by asking questions.

    Our repeat business (who upgrade) and new customers who have bought budget kilts elsewhere and then come to us for a wool kilt may actually surprise you. While I'm not going to go over my company's 'sales figures' publicly, I will say it's a higher number than most people realize. We actively explain the differences in fabric qualities and promote wool as "the best" fabric for a kilt to be made from.

    Quote Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
    The fact is that out and abroad, to the extent that PV has become more prevalent...in suits, kilts, all sorts of stuff, woolen mills have lost business.

    Mind you, I wouldn't mind a 16 or 18 ounce PV or PV/wool mix kilt in MacQueen, myownself..
    Yes, PV fabric (and other fabrics) have become alternatives in many respects. What will happen to the woolen mills? They can weave other types of fabric in addition to wool. House of Edgar's MAIN business is weaving upholstery grade fabrics. Kilt tartans are just a fraction of their business. Marton Mills weaves both PV AND wool for kilts as well as dozens of other qualities of fabrics.

    There's nothing to say a woolen mill can ONLY produce wool cloth.

    Quote Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
    But there's more to it than just the shrinking demand. What happens to all the skilled weavers who know how to set up a loom for wool? Or the dyers? Or the people who bring unique skills to the making of Traditional wool kilts?

    They get laid off, that's what. And once they are gone those skills and that knowledge never come back...or only with the greatest of difficulty.
    If they weave other cloth and find other markets, they won't 'get laid off'. They'll learn a different market. The heads of the mills have to diversify, not just do one thing and collapse if/when it becomes outdated.

    The mills (even ones that have / had trouble) have tried to do that... knitwear, fashion textiles, etc. Not all of it works, but diversity is how you survive a slumping market.

    I worked for a company called 'Blades, Board & Skate' as a retail store manager for a period. Their model worked for a while b/c if Skateboards declined in popularity, Rollerblades and Snowboards would carry them. If Rollerblades declined, Skateboards and Snowboards would. Where they ran into trouble was when Rollerblades and Skateboards declined in 2002 - 2003 and Snowboards stagnated (and they couldn't pay bills and went bankrupt).

    Quote Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
    I saw a post...didn't read it...saying that Locharran had been sold to Koreans.

    What do you think they wanted it for? To put traditional tartan kilts on Koreans? Or for its money making abilities?

    Sure, they'll run it with the current staff...for a while. And then the economies of scale will kick in and more and more of the process will be mechanized and dumbed down. PV will become the staple fabric within a generation...we'll all have our 16 ounce poly viscose kilts in a plethora of tartans. For a while. And then perhaps acrylic will be introduced or more obscure tartans will be dropped from the line. What cultural connections do the Korean owners have with the Traditional and history of Scotland?

    Locharran is a cash-cow that will be milked until dry ...just like so many other great Traditional industries. The Koreans aren't doing anything that the Chinese aren't doing. That American aren't doing.
    As many processes that CAN be mechanized ARE. There's little to no 'economies of scale' in this instance as Lochcarron is one of the 2 largest tartan weavers by far. The same Korean company also bought (a year or two back from my understanding) a Scottish Knitwear company (and I don't believe there have been major layoffs). They are investing in Scottish made goods. What are their intentions for the long term? No way to tell unless you're them, so I won't speculate.

    PV will not replace wool as it's not a replacement FOR wool. It's the 'best alternative' in my estimation, but it is by no means a replacement. Wool kilts will still exist and will still continue to be made so long as people want them. May the price go up? Yes, but that wouldn't simply be attributed to PV 'taking over'. It's much more complex an issue and for that, you'll have to look at the world market for woolen goods.

    Quote Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
    And to the extent that woolen mills remain in the hands of their Traditional owners/cultures and follow traditional practices, the price will skyrocket. As it has been doing.
    Again, that's due to raw wool prices increasing 30% in a year and increased demand in China. I'm not on the 'blame China' crowd... but when a nation of over a billion people decide they like wool products and start purchasing, that has a ripple effect.

    BTW... the same is true for MANY raw materials, not just wool. Pewter is up something like 25% in a couple years. Cotton prices are skyrocketing. Silver and gold are at all time highs.

    Quote Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
    Where's the gateway then?
    Still PV and other low priced kilts.

    Quote Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
    Once upon a time bespoke, handmade shoes were the only available option. And were, within reason, affordable to all but the poorest. Today bespoke handmade shoes can easily top $1200.00 and many will go in the $5k-$6k range. Yet it is only at that price point that traditional quality...devoid of synthetics, cardboard and expediencies...and anything resembling a true fit, can be had.

    It's a brave new world.
    "Old World" craftsmanship is a dying art in most industries, yet there will always be a demand, even at over inflated prices (which is the scenario you painted above). If you want custom made items and high quality items, they are going to cost more than similar items at Walmart.

    I don't shop at Walmart for that reason. I only buy UK, US and Canadian made 'kilt related' products for that reason ("Celtic products made by Celtic artisans"). In my personal (non kilt related) life, I try to buy at 'mom and pop' shops and I do proudly 'buy American' as much as possible. If you want to change the world, start with the man in the mirror.

    Again, these are just my observations and opinions based on my experience in this market. I hope this was able to shed some light for some people. Others may disagree and their mileage may vary, and that's fine too.
    Last edited by RockyR; 7th July 11 at 01:04 PM.

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