The Craftsman versus the Industrial Complex

[RockyR]

I'm not surprised. I suspect you don't have any idea what I've said.

Posts like this seem to come out of nowhere--no quotes...offending or otherwise...no references to actual words or concepts, no speaking to the actual discussion. Just "feelings."

There is a good discussion here...with little or no hostility or vitriol being generated...I'd prefer to keep it that way.

With all due respect, and to point back at your quote about being on a public forum...

If you can't stand someone disagreeing with you, or offering opinion you might not like, you probably ought to steer clear of forums in general.

You had to realize that taking the stance you did, in the public manner you did, on the forum you did, would raise some (dare I say many) hackles. Yes, you and I are carrying on a civil discussion about the (off) topic at hand, but you must have realized that many would take offense to such statements. It's like hitting a bee-hive with a stick, then being suprised the bees are angry.

Inflections, 'meanings', 'intentions' etc can't always be surmised through written text on a forum. Some people will assign attributes to your comments which you may not have intened. Even if not explicitly stated, others may have thought you meant something. Based on the comments in this discussion, I can see how a 'short leap' could have been made.

[DWFII]

With all due respect, and to point back at your quote about being on a public forum... You had to realize that taking the stance you did, in the public manner you did, on the forum you did, would raise some (dare I say many) hackles. Yes, you and I are carrying on a civil discussion about the (off) topic at hand, but you must have realized that many would take offense to such statements.

OK...what does that signify? That I'm wrong? Or that some people are out of their comfort zone? Might it be that some are having to think a little deeper about some of these issues? I know I am.

And what should I do about it? Not express my opinion? Seems to me that way "the terrorists win."

I don't think that I am being disparaging to anyone. I am trying not to be impatient with people who don't read posts like they themselves would want theirs read.

I'm in the same position as everyone else here. There are people disagreeing with me. There are even people making cogent points countering mine. Shall I take offense? Shall I start characterizing their remarks as "elitist" or as "slag"(ging)?

I don't think I am doing that...I hope I am not doing that.

If people don't accuse me of calling them "cross-dressers" when I have not, I don't really have any problem with their disagreeing with me.

Do I have an opinion that is uncommon here...not part of the general mind set? Yes and no. I like and admire kilts ...tartan kilts worn with respect for the traditions of the Scottish Highlands...as much as anyone else.

And I am tolerant of all the rest--that seems to me to be unusual right there. I'd wear a 16 ounce PV kilt...in a heartbeat.

"Kilt police" indeed!

As for being "off-topic" let me ask your opinion...how does or how should a real time discussion go...in real life, I mean? Does the conversation build off of itself? One comment leading to another comment, slightly divergent; one subject inspiring another? Or does one of the participants jump up saying "we can't talk about that--it's off topic?" Yes, we're off topic. I'll move on if everybody else will.

[RockyR]

OK...what does that signify? That I'm wrong? Or that some people are out of their comfort zone? Might it be that some are having to think a little deeper about some of these issues? I know I am.

And what should I do about it? Not express my opinion? Seems to me that way "the terrorists win."

To the Casual reader on a somewhat modest income, stating that $100 (retail) shoes are poor quality and that only shoes in the $1000 + category are real quality can come across as insulting (especially if you thought your $150 shoes WERE good quality) and somewhat 'eliteist' (even if that wasn't the intention).

Once someone has an opinion that someone else's beliefs / views are eliteist, it's tough to come back from that and read their future posts with anything other than that 'slant', even if that wasn't the person's intentions to start with. You can (as can we all) GLADLY express our opinions. We just have to be cognisent of how that opinon is perceived.

I don't think that I am being disparaging to anyone. I am trying not to be impatient with people who don't read posts like they themselves would want theirs read.

SNIP...

And I am tolerant of all the rest--that seems to me to be unusual right there. I'd wear a 16 ounce PV kilt...in a heartbeat.

"Kilt police" indeed!

This last bit is my editing, but is an example of my comments above. Stating that you're 'tolerant' of all the rest, can be seen as 'eliteist' even if that wasn't your intention. If other members here who wear casual kilts said that they 'tolerated' traditional kilt wearers, it promotes an 'us vs. them' mentality, which is not generally very good on a community trying to foster friendships.

Just my $.02.

[CMcG]

To the Casual reader on a somewhat modest income, stating that $100 (retail) shoes are poor quality and that only shoes in the $1000 + category are real quality can come across as insulting (especially if you thought your $150 shoes WERE good quality) and somewhat 'eliteist' (even if that wasn't the intention).
<snip>

I'm not insulted by the elitism, but read that sort of statement as patently false. I've had Ðoc Martens shoes and Blundstone boots that cost around $150 and have lasted ten years or more. Seems like good quality to me and, at the very least, not disposable.

Similarly, I have read reports about Rocky's inexpensive casual kilts being quite durable. There were even some pictures of one surviving the Warrior Dash and still looking good (after washing of course).

Affordable can be a synonym for cheap, but cheap doesn't necessarily mean poor quality. Sometimes it just means good value.

[Java]

DWFII; Let's slow down a minute. I did't say you were the kilt police. I just said that I had run into them a lot, then I appologized for mistaking you for one. After having a discussion with you, I am sure that you and I will be able to disagree, without any ill will. I consider an Amerlkilt to be a "real" kilt, and if you don't, I'm sure we will be able to agree to disagree. Most "traditionalists" on these forums would agree to disagree with me on this point. But there are many who can't. They are so deeply offended by the thought of anyone dressed in a less than orthodox way and calling it a kilt, that they simply can't agree to disagree. These are the kilt police. They enforce their law by belittling, name calling, and insulting, and generally trying to drive away anyone who would dare call anything but a bespoke 16 oz wool kilt a kilt. Anyone that dares defend himself when called a cross-dressing deviant is accused of "traditionalist bashing"

Again, I'm not accusing you of any of this. I've appologized for that. I'm simply debating the existence of the "kilt police"

At this point it seems to be "dogpile on DWFII" time in here. If anything in this post sounds at all like an insult to you, please point it out, as it is probably just unfortunate wording on my part.

Have Fun,
Tom

[DWFII]

DWFII; Let's slow down a minute. I did't say you were the kilt police. I just said that I had run into them a lot, then I appologized for mistaking you for one. After having a discussion with you, I am sure that you and I will be able to disagree, without any ill will. I consider an Amerlkilt to be a "real" kilt, and if you don't, I'm sure we will be able to agree to disagree. Most "traditionalists" on these forums would agree to disagree with me on this point. But there are many who can't. They are so deeply offended by the thought of anyone dressed in a less than orthodox way and calling it a kilt, that they simply can't agree to disagree. These are the kilt police. They enforce their law by belittling, name calling, and insulting, and generally trying to drive away anyone who would dare call anything but a bespoke 16 oz wool kilt a kilt. Anyone that dares defend himself when called a cross-dressing deviant is accused of "traditionalist bashing"

Again, I'm not accusing you of any of this. I've appologized for that. I'm simply debating the existence of the "kilt police"

At this point it seems to be "dogpile on DWFII" time in here. If anything in this post sounds at all like an insult to you, please point it out, as it is probably just unfortunate wording on my part.

Have Fun,
Tom

OK...reset. No harm, no foul.

And no worries about insulting me. I may occasionally get impatient or come back at you as sharply as I suspect you have come at me...but I am not so thin skinned that I take insult at any and every disagreement.


PS...I said in my reply to Rocky...with regard to "Off Topic" that I was willing to move on if everybody else was.

???!! Are we Off Topic yet?

[ThistleDown]

Be reminded that this is a forum for polite ladies and gentlemen and not one where the slightest hint of confrontation is acceptable. If you wish to play nicely with each other then carry on in a different fashion that some of you have been to this time.