The Craftsman versus the Industrial Complex

[piperdbh]

No offense to anyone, but I suspect there's also a difference between a Craftsman (and, just for the sake of refining the idea, let's stipulate a capital "C") and a hobbyist. I am not taking anything away from the hobbyist. That's where the passion begins. But the hobbyist never really has to answer for his work; never has to embark on that never ending search for excellence; never has to face...or believe in the idea of "good, better, best."

Shenanigans!
I'm a "hobbyist" sock knitter and am currently in the middle of making a pair of kilt hose for a man whom some of you know. When I attached the cuff to the first sock I discovered that there were some technical problems, so now I have to rip out 5 hours' worth of work and redo it. I could leave the sock the way it is, say "it's good enough" and never think about it again. But I can't do that. The hose have to be right. In other words, I have to answer for my work, I have to make the socks the best I possibly can (I think that's called the "search for excellence"), and if I didn't believe in "good, better, best" I wouldn't be using the best Merino yarn I could find and I wouldn't undo work that wasn't right and I wouldn't be making bespoke, custom designed hose.
Similarly, the Mrs. and I (again, "hobbyists") make cakes for weddings, parties and whatever else someone wants a cake for. To make the icing the best texture it can be, I have to buy shortening in a 50-pound box and pay $50 shipping, on top of its cost. I could say, "Crisco's good enough; I'm not a craftsman, after all." But if it were your daughter's wedding cake that was ruined by inferior ingredients, you (or her, either) wouldn't care what I called myself; you'd be calling me a few choice names of your own.
As for who's a "master", "craftsman", "amateur", "journeyman", "apprentice", "jack-leg" or whatever, who cares? As long as the customer and the maker/seller are honest with each other and are satisfied with the deal, I don't see why someone not involved needs to get upset about somebody else's business.
As the wise man said, "That's all I've got to say about it."

[DWFII]

The masses can not afford 'elite pieces of art' (whether it be clothing, shoes, paintings, etc). We live within our means or we live without. To only purchase 'pieces of art' on an average person's salary would be irresponsible.

I'm not talking about elite pieces of art...nor, in a broader sense, was Kipling...

And there was a time when if you didn't have a pair of handmade shoes, you didn't have shoes. And somehow people got by. The "art" they hung on their wall was of their own making. The music of their own making. Kind of like the Internet, those connections connections fostered other connections. And so they saved to have a kilt. They saved to have shoes.

And as an aside they took care of (maintained) those things. [shock]

There was a time and place in the US when if you worked more than two hours a day it was because you didn't have land and/or slaves to work it. It is significant that at the turn of the 19th century workers all across the board were incensed by what was known at the time as "wage slavery." Even then, when society might have taken a different path, they felt the breaking of connections ...felt their lives slipping out of their control.

Today much of what supports our "prosperity" is based on the exploitation of other people. Much of our prosperity...maybe near-as-nevermind all of it...is based on passing the real cost onto our children and our grandchildren.

Today the masses live on someone else's blood sweat and tears ...one way or the other.

Craftsmen...of any stripe...seldom get paid what they're worth. And yet in a sense which is seldom addressed or equaled, what they produce has a real value that does not pass the cost on to others.

Anthony Delos probably comes close to getting a reasonable wage ($5000.00 per pair). But that only means compensation for hours worked equivalent to what most people in this country get working at middle class jobs.

No disrespect intended and with the acknowledgement that I am speculating (based on other people, many other people I've known) but I suspect that for most of my 40 years in the business I have worked longer hours and for lower wage than perhaps anyone in this discussion with the possible exception of Rocky. (Being the "master"of your own workshop" is not the easiest row to hoe.)

Yet I own my own home, two Scottish wool kilts, one handmade for me, and have no outstanding debt. I don't intend to crow about that...I've gotten lucky and I truly have been blessed...but I'm no genius. In another age...maybe even today...I am the very definition of the "masses". If I can do it others surely can.

[DWFII]

Shenanigans!
I'm a "hobbyist" sock knitter and am currently in the middle of making a pair of kilt hose for a man whom some of you know. When I attached the cuff to the first sock I discovered that there were some technical problems, so now I have to rip out 5 hours' worth of work and redo it. I could leave the sock the way it is, say "it's good enough" and never think about it again. But I can't do that. The hose have to be right. In other words, I have to answer for my work, I have to make the socks the best I possibly can (I think that's called the "search for excellence"), and if I didn't believe in "good, better, best" I wouldn't be using the best Merino yarn I could find and I wouldn't undo work that wasn't right and I wouldn't be making bespoke, custom designed hose.
Similarly, the Mrs. and I (again, "hobbyists") make cakes for weddings, parties and whatever else someone wants a cake for. To make the icing the best texture it can be, I have to buy shortening in a 50-pound box and pay $50 shipping, on top of its cost. I could say, "Crisco's good enough; I'm not a craftsman, after all." But if it were your daughter's wedding cake that was ruined by inferior ingredients, you (or her, either) wouldn't care what I called myself; you'd be calling me a few choice names of your own.

But you prove my point! You are a Craftsman" especially if you make those decisions and answer to those standards day after day. That's where all this started---in the very different decision trees that different sorts of people/makers face. And the results that spring from those choices.

There is, if nothing else, a coherence (honed over years of studying this issue and years and years of experience) that flows through all of this dialog...at least on my part. I suspect you missed it. Maybe you don't see that reading one or two posts but over the whole thread it is there. I am careful about it. I need it to be there.

That too is Craftsmanship.

[DWFII]

I'm not at all certain that I can agree with the distinction. The term "amateur" has a negative connotation these days, while "professional" has a positive one. That is unfortunate. The word "amateur" derives from "ama" literally "love." It describes someone who pursues an art for the love of the art, rather than strictly for monetary gain. A "professional" on the other hand works, day in and day out to satisfy the market.

In that sense, the "professional" works to be good enough, while the amateur works to be as good as possible.

Now, I am certain, DWFII, that you are an "amateur" in the sense that you truly love your craft and work to see that each and every piece is as fine as you are capable of producing.

As you have pointed out , the current market is filled with "good enough" professionals. They succeed because for most people, most of the time, "good enough" is sufficient.

Thankfully, there are still people who work for the love of the art. Also thankfully, there are people who are sufficiently appreciative of their efforts to support those endeavors. You are a rarity in that your life's work coincides so well with your passion.

It is not be possible, in all cases, to earn a living in one's chosen form. As a case in point pipers who earn a living playing the pipes are vanishingly rare. But witness the massed bands at your local games and you'll see that there are many talented, dedicated amateurs. To deny that these folk are craftsmen is, in my opinion, a false distinction.

I didn't use the word "amateur". Since much of what you have said here is informed by that distinction, even though I might agree with every word,it is not really germane to what you seem to be responding to with your quote from my post.

All I am talking about in describing Craftsmen is intent and dedication. The responsibility that accrues to being a Craftsman, the mandate that you be answerable...not just to customers but to a higher standard--one set by Tradition, by what has gone before, by your own secret knowledge that you could have done better. All this flows from intent and dedication. And all of it can be found in amateurs and found to be gone missing in "professionals."

This, after all, is what I am/was deploring about factories and the choices they make.

[KD Burke]

There was a time and place in the US when if you worked more than two hours a day it was because you didn't have land and/or slaves to work it.

What an extraordinary statement!

I find I can make no response that will not violate the spirit, if not the letter of the forum rules.

I will therefore retire from this discussion.

[DWFII]

What an extraordinary statement!

I find I can make no response that will not violate the spirit, if not the letter of the forum rules.

I will therefore retire from this discussion.

I don't understand this. I stated nothing but the facts. I did not offer an opinion as to whether that state of affairs was good or bad.

It's history.

I could elaborate...but if you read the whole post and not just bits and pieces of it, it's clearly part of a larger observation about the real cost of our prosperity.

[Phil]

Sadly craftsmen, by and large, are a thing of the past. Industrial processes have "de-skilled" many such processes but the upside of that is that we can nowadays possess so many such items that were once the preserve of the rich. Henry Ford brought cars (automobiles) to the masses, televisions and refrigerators and most other domestic appliances nowadays cost a fraction of what they did 40 years ago in both real and comparative terms. Shoes, which are a cherished subject of DWF11, once belonged mainly to moneyed people and I still remember children to whom shoes were strangers, wellington boots being their sole footwear (pardon the pun). Clothes were hand-made by tailors (an endangered species nowadays), cost a great deal of money and were expected to last a lifetime (with repairs if necessary). Who nowadays sees a jacket with leather elbow patches? Who darns socks or pullovers any more? So while we may look back at such craftsmanship with a degree of nostalgia it is much the same as remembering the "good old days" with a sigh of nostalgia, forgetting that with such rose-tinted spectacles not all was quite as we would like to remember.

[DWFII]

I have read and reread the rules. I cannot find anything that states I cannot make the following observation but if the mods feel that they need to delete this post, so be it.

Someone reported my post #57 for violation of rule #8-- The best I can figure is that whoever it was took exception to my recounting of the experiences and observations that inform my opinions.

I can't decide whether this is funny or sad. It's as if there is a network or cabal of spies who skitter about industriously looking for anything and everything to report or complain about. No matter how petty. No matter how spurious.

Do they get gold stars pasted next to their names?

It is not democracy, it is not free speech, it invalidates the whole concept and spirit of discussion, of a discussion forum.

It's a violation of my rights. If I knew who it was I would report them for hiding in the weeds. For not taking responsibility for their own actions. For denying me the right to confront my accuser. For cowardice.

It is repression by whisper and gossip. It is George Orwell's vision made manifest and enforced in the same way for the same ends--spite, vindictiveness, envy.

Perhaps the rules should state what can be said...what is allowed. Create scripts so that we can parrot them by rote so that no one will be made to feel like they are out of their comfort zone or over their heads intellectually. Note...I did not say anyone was, I am just offering a suggestion.

This kind of behaviour makes me angry. It should make everyone angry. There is no safety in silence.

I'm sure this post will also be reported.

[DWFII]

Sadly craftsmen, by and large, are a thing of the past. Industrial processes have "de-skilled" many such processes but the upside of that is that we can nowadays possess so many such items that were once the preserve of the rich. Henry Ford brought cars (automobiles) to the masses, televisions and refrigerators and most other domestic appliances nowadays cost a fraction of what they did 40 years ago in both real and comparative terms. Shoes, which are a cherished subject of DWF11, once belonged mainly to moneyed people and I still remember children to whom shoes were strangers, wellington boots being their sole footwear (pardon the pun). Clothes were hand-made by tailors (an endangered species nowadays), cost a great deal of money and were expected to last a lifetime (with repairs if necessary). Who nowadays sees a jacket with leather elbow patches? Who darns socks or pullovers any more? So while we may look back at such craftsmanship with a degree of nostalgia it is much the same as remembering the "good old days" with a sigh of nostalgia, forgetting that with such rose-tinted spectacles not all was quite as we would like to remember.

Speak to me...us...about what the "good new days" offer. Where are we going? What are the consequences?

It's easy to say they are a "thing of the past"...to dismiss connections and craftsmanship and caring about people the pursuit of excellence and taking responsibility for one's actions as untenable in modern society. But what are the alternatives?

How's that "brave new world thing" working out?

[RockyR]

How's that "brave new world thing" working out?

How are the 'old ways' working out?

You keep referring to the "brave new world". Remember that EVERYTHING was invented / discovered at some point... even fire. Your 'old ways' were once new ways.

Technology and progress are facts. They may not be facts that you like, but they are facts.

I would suggest that we need to redefine craftsman in a modern age. There are those who are better at making things with sewing machines (read as 'technology') than those who sew by hand. I've seen machine sewn kilts that rival the best hand sewn kilts. I've also seen very POOR examples of handsewn kilts sewn by 'professionals'.

Perhaps "tecraftsman"? People who are the best in their field with the aid of technology.