The Craftsman versus the Industrial Complex

[RockyR]

Oh, come on...that's just facetious, you know it is. It's sophistry. I am laughing but it's not really a valid objection is it?

No... hence the

Kelly cleans, cards, spins and knits her own wool as well, so I'm well aware of the process. I WILL say that I did NOT (nor do I plan to) make her a spinning wheel or drum carder, no matter WHERE the wood comes from. Some people want to do things soup to nuts. Good on them! It's most likely NOT a sustainable business model, but it is a labor of love and something to be proud of.

[Mael Coluim]

I have read and reread the rules. I cannot find anything that states I cannot make the following observation but if the mods feel that they need to delete this post, so be it.

Someone reported my post #57 for violation of rule #8-- The best I can figure is that whoever it was took exception to my recounting of the experiences and observations that inform my opinions.

I can't decide whether this is funny or sad. It's as if there is a network or cabal of spies who skitter about industriously looking for anything and everything to report or complain about. No matter how petty. No matter how spurious.

Do they get gold stars pasted next to their names?

It is not democracy, it is not free speech, it invalidates the whole concept and spirit of discussion, of a discussion forum.

It's a violation of my rights. If I knew who it was I would report them for hiding in the weeds. For not taking responsibility for their own actions. For denying me the right to confront my accuser. For cowardice.

It is repression by whisper and gossip. It is George Orwell's vision made manifest and enforced in the same way for the same ends--spite, vindictiveness, envy.

Perhaps the rules should state what can be said...what is allowed. Create scripts so that we can parrot them by rote so that no one will be made to feel like they are out of their comfort zone or over their heads intellectually. Note...I did not say anyone was, I am just offering a suggestion.

This kind of behaviour makes me angry. It should make everyone angry. There is no safety in silence.

I'm sure this post will also be reported.

Well, if this post was reported for a Rule violation, we would take a look at it. The moderators cannot be reading every post and we depend on the members to report their perceived violations of the Rules. It comes down many times to people’s perceptions. What someone may find offensive may not be offensive to me. The moderators don’t always agree on a Rule violation, but the majority decides if it is.

No we don’t give out gold stars for reporting. Of course, if someone reported a number of posts that we were always finding that there was no violation, at least for me in receiving a reported post from that individual, I might be initially skeptical of the report, but I would still read it through and evaluate the reported post with an open mind. But you know we don’t have that situation here at XMarks. Thank goodness. Sometimes, I don’t get it with a reported post. I reframe from voting in our deliberations seeking counsel of the other moderators in what they may see in the reported post.

If member takes a member to task in what is said, I personally think that can be a good thing. We just ask in be done in a civil manner. We have had a few problems not doing that in this thread. I appreciate a member’s decision in not saying anything at all, when it can’t be said in a positive manner within the rules or our philosophy. I sometimes wonder when a member gets so upset with another’s member point of view they keep countering the argument, when they may be best be served, by moving on and not visiting the thread. Life is short.

It’s not a violation of your rights in being reported. You agree to abide by our Rules by being part of this community. The report a post system that we depend on in finding Rules violation is based on anonymous reporting. We feel if the reporter was shared with the possible violator then members would reframe from reporting and our system would not work. Everyone is entitle to their opinion, but to play in this playground you play by the playground rules.

ern a XMark's moderator speaking for himself

[Drac]

but it is a labor of love and something to be proud of.

Isn't that the real differance between the two? My father values one of my early (and nasty) pieces.

Quality, tools used, where the material comes from, what the material is does it matter more than the person behind it? Rocky makes great kilts. He takes pride in them. He stands behind them. He cares for his customers.

Isn't that what it boils down to?

Jim

[DWFII]

Shoeless working class. Dirty masses. 1 or MAYBE 2 shirts and pairs of pants (or kilts) for each person. Working in the facroty 10 - 12 hours a day with no windows and no fire escapes. Paid in company script to buy things at the company store.

No, the alternatives are what we see the beginnings of right now....and no one here in this discussion seems to be willing to address or confront--the alternatives are global warming. And great huge floating rafts, bigger than some states, in the Pacific ocean comprised of plastic bags, discarded clothing, shoes, syringes, beer can rings--all the detritus of a throw-away, consumer culture. The real alternatives are loss of habitat and biomes.

Of being alone in a world we have sterilized in pursuit of "efficiency" and comfort.

Extrapolate into the future ten years, twenty...none of us are responsible because we are just making semi-quality, graded-quality widgets 8 hours a day in a job we hate.

And it is those people right there who are the faceless masses that you talk about--they live in urban squalor and always will. In quiet desperation because nothing they encounter in their work days, in their leisure time has any real meaning for them. They can't afford the luxury of a Rocky Mountain getaway or a Caribbean summer home.

And as each passing fad comes and goes...kilts too, perhaps?...they move onto the next looking for who knows what and never look back. There are no "good old days" for this and the next and the next generation. Not even in their proximate memories.The problem is there are no good new days ether.

It also might be pointed out that having plastic shoes is not significantly different from having currans strapped to your feet. Neither are the best option. But of course your grandchildren and your great-grandchildren won't have to pay for the currans.

I am not looking to take us back to 1880. Read that statement again...I am not wanting to go back. But there were a lot of good things in the way people approached life and work. And a lot of lessons to be learned.

If progress has given us anything of value....it has given us the luxury, if we will but reach out and take it, to re-evaluate the present and shape the future so that it is not just an extrapolation of the current dismal state of affairs that is so horrible no one (here) wants to deal with it.

There 's a lot of the 19th century, and even the 18th century, that could be embraced in the 21st century and it would be a good thing--a revitalizing thing.

[RockyR]

***

The problem with factories...and the factory mentality is not the machines...machines are just elaborate tools.

Rather it is the mentality that makes profit and efficiency job one...and in the process comes to regard human beings as just a rather squishy machine. And one that goes obsolete far too quickly and requires too much maintenance.

Again... the problem with statements like that is that we're PAST that mentality on many levels. Unions, health care (provided by the company), safety equipment, mandatory breaks, 8 hour working days (some of us still work 12 hour days 6 days a week... us small business owners... but that is OUR choice), vacation time, sick days, maternity leave, 401 K, profit sharing plans, etc...

ALL these things point to the fact that it's NOT JUST greed that operates a company. Profit MUST be a factor (a MAIN factor) or you actually do a DIS-SERVICE to your employees.

I pose this question: Who is better...

1. A company of 15 profession craftsmen on the top of their field who produce the highest quality widgit. This company refuses to cut ANY corner and makes ONLY the highest quality widgit. The price of the widgit is $1500.

2. A company of workers who produce 'socially acceptable' quality widgits at $100. This company has 200 employees and they are all paid 'average wages' for workers. They have a company health care plan and work 40 hours a week. They get paid lunch and 2 X 15 minute breaks.

In an economy where people are looking for better "deals" and the sales of both companies are slumping, company 1 refuses to cut corners and tries to weather the storm. Company 2 reacts to market demands and finds a way to replace 1 element of the widgit with a less expensive element (lower quality a TINY bit, but not discernable to 99% of the population).

Company 1 loses business for unwillingness to compromise on quality and sells less widgits. As a result of lowered sales, they have less money to pay workers and less demand for product, so they have to lay off workers.

Company 2, having responding to market demands, weathers the storm and does not have to lay anyone off.

Which company is more socially responsible TO THEIR EMPLOYEES, the people who DEPEND on that job to live?

High standards are a wonderful thing, but if there's no food on the table, what's the point?

[Phil]

Speak to me...us...about what the "good new days" offer. Where are we going? What are the consequences?

It's easy to say they are a "thing of the past"...to dismiss connections and craftsmanship and caring about people the pursuit of excellence and taking responsibility for one's actions as untenable in modern society. But what are the alternatives?

How's that "brave new world thing" working out?

As an American, living in the the land where the concept of "planned obsolescence" was conceived, where the supermarket was introduced to supplant the livelihoods of countless small traders, where mass-production in factories and shipbuilding were first introduced, you of all people must be very aware of just exactly where we are going. And, of course, when your countrymen - and mine - priced themselves out of the drudgery and toil involved, the jobs moved overseas to low wage economies in Asia and elsewhere. Trouble is those low wage economies are now becoming more affluent. Nowadays they want all the goodies that we've enjoyed for so long. They all drive cars now instead of riding bicycles, every mud hut has a television and so the price of petrol (gas) goes up along with all the other raw materials we used to get so cheap. I think you can see where I'm going. To that "brave new world" you talk about where we might find ourselves in a thirld world country ourselves in a few generations.

[RockyR]

JUST TO CLARIFY...

I am NOT saying that the days we live in are without fault. There are many things (evils) in this world. There are many pollutions, floating trash dumps, carbon monoxide spewing vehicles, wasteful water users (there's a huge problem with lack of drinking water in some areas), etc.

I DO wish people were more responsible in their decisions sometimes. I do my part on a small scale. I live exactly 2 miles from work. I eat as many locally grown foods as I can. I shop at farmers markets and local 'mom and pop' shops and avoid Walmart like the plague. I keep the thermostat at 74 degrees in summer and 68 in winter. I only cool the parts of our shop that are occupied... I'm not using solar power to make kilts like Robert Pel, but I do what I can.

Point is... While I'm defending 'capitalism' in these posts, I am also for RESPONSIBLE capitalism and for NOT exploiting workers.

[Drac]

No, the alternatives are what we see the beginnings of right now....and no one here in this discussion seems to be willing to address or confront--the alternatives are global warming. And great huge floating rafts, bigger than some states, in the Pacific ocean comprised of plastic bags, discarded clothing, shoes, syringes, beer can rings--all the detritus of a throw-away, consumer culture. The real alternatives are loss of habitat and biomes.

Of being alone in a world we have sterilized in pursuit of "efficiency" and comfort.

Extrapolate into the future ten years, twenty...none of us are responsible because we are just making semi-quality, graded-quality widgets 8 hours a day in a job we hate.

And it is those people right there who are the faceless masses that you talk about--they live in urban squalor and always will. In quiet desperation because nothing they encounter in their work days, in their leisure time has any real meaning for them. They can't afford the luxury of a Rocky Mountain getaway or a Caribbean summer home.

And as each passing fad comes and goes...kilts too, perhaps?...they move onto the next looking for who knows what and never look back. There are no "good old days" for this and the next and the next generation. Not even in their proximate memories.The problem is there are no good new days ether.

It also might be pointed out that having plastic shoes is not significantly different from having currans strapped to your feet. Neither are the best option. But of course your grandchildren and your great-grandchildren won't have to pay for the currans.

I am not looking to take us back to 1880. Read that statement again...I am not wanting to go back. But there were a lot of good things in the way people approached life and work. And a lot of lessons to be learned.

If progress has given us anything of value....it has given us the luxury, if we will but reach out and take it, to re-evaluate the present and shape the future so that it is not just an extrapolation of the current dismal state of affairs that is so horrible no one (here) wants to deal with it.

There 's a lot of the 19th century, and even the 18th century, that could be embraced in the 21st century and it would be a good thing--a revitalizing thing.

There are a lot of things that are being "brought back" from those time periods and being embraced by people. The lessons of the Depression are being learned again. Victory gardens are being planted again. Reduce, reuse, recycle are becoming more than catch phrases. Basic skills for our fore fathers are being relearned.

While many of these will be fads and will pass with the current crisses it will still have a lasting effect on the people of this and the next generations.

Can we go back to a society that makes everything being made in the shop by one or two masters and their appentices? Don't know. Takes a long time for people to master skills of that nature. Also in an apprenticship style society it doesn't make it easy for school unless the person doesn't start untill they are an adult.

Jim

[artificer]

Again... the problem with statements like that is that we're PAST that mentality on many levels. Unions, health care (provided by the company), safety equipment, mandatory breaks, 8 hour working days (some of us still work 12 hour days 6 days a week... us small business owners... but that is OUR choice), vacation time, sick days, maternity leave, 401 K, profit sharing plans, etc...

Sadly, there is a movement in this country , right now, to strip workers of all of these things. It's going on in my state, and all across this country.

To that "brave new world" you talk about where we might find ourselves in a thirld world country ourselves in a few generations.

And this is exactly where we're heading, due in great part to the above movement.

Back onto topic:

I think the craftsman/artist vs industry produced issue is much like everything else. There is a middle path.

We all cannot wait several months for a pair of handmade shoes, or attend three fittings for a suit, or spend the time and money for a fully custom made sporran.

I believe that there is a place for industrial production alongside custom craftsmanship.

The real problem lies in the attitude of business and investors today. Nobody is happy with 7% profit anymore. People demand 15-30% on their cash. Businesses don't seem to care about their product as much as they do their stock price. Decisions are made to cut overhead (firing skilled employees, lower quality materials, slipshod work) all to placate the market's insane need for profit, with no thought to the future of the business (primarily because the executive who is getting that big fat bonus based on stock performance won't be around in 5 years to feel the effects of their actions).

It's not "production" that is the problem, it is profit OVER product that is the poison in our "production", and to a great degree, in the overall economy.

Sadly, we're only starting to see the effects of this cycle. Products ARE garbage in a huge number of cases. Stuff breaks before you can cut up the box for recycling.

I have personally given up buying anything except the very essentials. I don't want anymore crap in my life. It's just frustration.

I'm no luddite, but we as a culture have arrived at a place that is going to be incredibly hard to return from.

$8 greeting cards with a computer chip and battery? WHY? They don't work after a few days and simply end up in a landfill poisoning the earth and water.

rant over

ith:

[RockyR]

Sadly, there is a movement in this country , right now, to strip workers of all of these things. It's going on in my state, and all across this country.

Which is why we need the balance... the happy medium.

Too often in business (and life) it's an 'us vs. them' mentality. If we worked to include all and be fair to all, things may (would?) work out much better for all involved. Instead, we have unions fighting with bosses and neither side has anything but their own best interest at heart. If we all thought of things (consistently) as 'creating the best company / group we can' and had that thought at the forefront of decisions made, IMHO, more companies would be more stable.

Too often bonuses are given to those who don't deserve them and salaries are paid to those who didn't work hard enough for them. That goes for white AND blue collar.

If more people had a 'small business mentality', maybe we'd do a little better. "If the company does not make enough money, I can't have a bonus (no matter how hard I worked)."

But that would probably mean that we'd all have to work a bit harder (more hours?) and increase effieiency, which some would consider detracting from life's grand experience. But if you worked in a place where your opinion was valued and you felt very much part of a team and were rewarded as such, would you mind as much?

I don't know the answers to this... I'm just throwing things out there. As someone who has worked (my a$$ off) solely for myself for the past 8 + years, I no longer have the 'work to collect a paycheck' mentality. To me, it's about succeeding and pride in my work (and work ethic) and I don't think I can 'un-flip that switch' even if I started working for someone else again.