Enough is Enough

[Archangel]

I think Bubba is speaking in physical capacity. When it comes to job's, like brain surgeon, it is those that excel at academics, not their physical make up, that succed in their bid to obtain that position. Since it is true that women are more intelligent than men, should we lower the expectations on any testing men get, so it better suits the disadvantage we are given naturally? I didn't think so.

Not sure I understand any of this. The stats are false so the argument doesn't follow. If you are suggesting that the testing be slanted to the lowest common denominator, I don't think that's what Shay is suggesting. Remove the artificial standards, and keep the critical ones, is what makes it fair.

[Archangel]

too true, but two wrongs still don't make a right.

Not getting this either. I think we're talking about righting a wrong.

[Archangel]

Shay, I've said for years that women, generally, don't belong in the infantry. This isn't saying they don't belong in the military. They can fly choppers, drive trucks and tanks, and a great many other jobs, some of which are combat jobs ( though why anyone in their right mind wants to go into combat is another issue). If a particular woman wants to try humping a 70 pound pack day after day and can sustain it and keep up fine, but I can imagine why she'd WANT to.

You can't put any of this stuff in the catagory of absolutes, all we can do is look at generalities here.

Gotta agree with the desire part and disagree with the absolutes part. The armed forces of most countries have done incredible stats on standardization and biometrics. The absolutes of job requirements are available in most cases. It is the application and the blocking that Shay is rightly pointing out.

[Archangel]

I must be slipping or something. Not one giggle, not one ruined keyboard, not one soiled monitor, nada for my efforts up above.

All I hear is crickets.

All of you are to darn serious. Go have a coffee. Or a whiskey or something. Perhaps a nice latte.

Sorry, I did read it, it wasn't one of your better ones.
Actually I watched a movie in between all this. So far it's staying friendly and hopefully people are learning things.

Not hearing any crickets, but it is nice to have the temperature break and be cool enough to have all the windows open. Found a box turtle in our backyard, wonder where that came from.

peace.

[bubba]

Archangel, maybe that turtle is going to apply for a job as a fireman

[bubba]

Gotta agree with the desire part and disagree with the absolutes part.

What I meant by absolutes is saying no woman can do the job, not that data isn't available.

[arrogcow]

It's a case of function over form- something the military is not very good at seeing all the time.


It's just silly- there's standards in physical tendencies that exclude women, but none that exclude men. If it's so fair and right to say, "You're not good enough because you're a woman," why is it so unfair to say, "You're not good enough because you're a man?"

That's not necessicarily true either. For instance in the US Army to go to ranger school, there are certain physical requirements that must be met. Not all men can qualify (I never did - not that I was trying Cav out fights rangers any day). When I was still a cadet, I knew a woman who wanted more than anything to be the first woman in ranger school. Party line was "Girls not allowed." Now I always felt that if she could pass the same physical requirements, there was no reason not to allow her to go, and as a former combat soldier I have that assesment of any woman. If she is physically capabal to do the job, let her have it. Yes there are still people that say you're not good enough because you're a woman, but many are saying you're not good enough because you're not good enough.

Are military physical exams arbitraty? To some extent. I remember failing a PT test run one time (by 7 seconds, I was always slow) and then a week later ran a 10 K right next to my commanding officer while guys (and girls) who had maxed the PT run were falling out from exhaution. Who was in better shape me or them?

In a physical job, should women be excluded automatically, no. However they should be excluded if they can not meet the same requirements as a guy. In a dexterity job (brain surgeon) should a guy be excluded automatically, no. But he should be if he can't handle the required minimum level of dexterity.

Adam
(and I have lost promotions to minorities and women because there were quotas to fill, not just given to the most qualified)

[Archangel]

Archangel, maybe that turtle is going to apply for a job as a fireman

now that's just plain silly.

[Archangel]

What I meant by absolutes is saying no woman can do the job, not that data isn't available.

fair enough.

[Dreadbelly]

now that's just plain silly.

Discrimination against turtles?! Shame!