Irish kilt pics, 1905

[Angus]

Is the magic answer that the pleats are going in the opposite direction compared to a Scottish kilt?

[michael steinrok]

Good stuff. We're just trying to date the kilt and precedence in regards to the origin of the "saffron kilt". I mistakenly believed that it was a british "bone to the Irish". Infact it was an Irish creation of the early 20th century as noted by Moosehead. It certainly changes my fenian predispositon to it. So being that it predates british military use my reservations have been removed about the saffron kilt, though the color is still ugly to me. Saffron to me should have a curry note to it.

[Moosehead]

One thing that should be pointed out, though: both Pearse and his Nationalists, as well as the Irish Regiments of the British Army were attempting to create "ancient Gaelic costumes" with no real documentation of the Irish wearing the kilt. The Irish regiments borrowed heavily from the Scots in terms of kit, with modifications to create a more "Irish" appearance.

Matt Newsome wrote a very excellent article on his blog about this; alas, I can't find it right now -- Matt, help!

No need. Like I said, I'm not going to go into the whole Irish kilt thing, as clearly others, considerably more qualified than I have already done so, including Matt. All have shown that the Irish kilt is no more than 150 years old. That's old enough for me.

I'm just trying to figure out who created the colour currently known as saffron relating to kilts as I had always been led to believe it came through the Brits. Apparently, I am wrong. I did notice my mistake with regards the LIR. They did have a Pipe band prior to my stated date of 1910, but as you say, no kilts.

Is the magic answer that the pleats are going in the opposite direction compared to a Scottish kilt?

And Angus wins the cupie doll! Yes, the pleats are going in the "wrong" direction.

Michael, take a look at the swatch on my site I call "old saffron".

[Angus]

WOOHOO!!!!

[macwilkin]

Good stuff. We're just trying to date the kilt and precedence in regards to the origin of the "saffron kilt". I mistakenly believed that it was a british "bone to the Irish". Infact it was an Irish creation of the early 20th century as noted by Moosehead. It certainly changes my fenian predispositon to it. So being that it predates british military use my reservations have been removed about the saffron kilt, though the color is still ugly to me. Saffron to me should have a curry note to it.

Yes, I know you're trying to date the origin of the saffron kilt, hence my citation from Harris's book regarding uniforms.

I would say that it was only an Irish "Nationalist" creation, though, Michael. Given the evidence, by the First World War, the Irish Regiments of the British Army were looking for more "Irish" traditions, which included creating the Irish Pipers outfit. In fact, The photos I have seen of Ceannt and The O'Rahilly in kilts, they are wearing dark green solid kilts, and not saffron.

In other words, I don't think Pearse can claim the sole credit for the saffron kilt.

T.

[mrpharr]

Great thread. Very interesting history.

[macwilkin]

BTW, there is a letter by Patrick Pearse on the Irish Kilt Club's web site which makes this statement:

Frankly, I should much prefer to see you arrayed in a kilt, although it may be less authentic, than in a pair of these trews. (emphasis mine)

-- http://www.somebody.to/pp.htm

So, Pearse admitted that his adoption of the kilt was "less authentic" than a pair of trousers in the National Museum.

It's an interesting article, to be sure.

Cheers,

Todd

[Moosehead]

In other words, I don't think Pearse can claim the sole credit for the saffron kilt.

Quite right, Todd. But he may be credited with this particular hue. Seems he toured Ireland and came upon a school in the Aran Islands, where boys wore "kilts", although pleated all the way around. The colour was quite similar to what he used, but was apparently uglier, so he changed it somewhat to make it a little more palatable.

So, Pearse admitted that his adoption of the kilt was "less authentic" than a pair of trousers in the National Museum.

It's an interesting article, to be sure.

Yep. Although the kilt is clearly more reminiscent of the leine. Only the masses wore trews.

Actually, the images I was sent came from the Communications Director of the Irish Kilt Society.

[macwilkin]

Quite right, Todd. But he may be credited with this particular hue. Seems he toured Ireland and came upon a school in the Aran Islands, where boys wore "kilts", although pleated all the way around. The colour was quite similar to what he used, but was apparently uglier, so he changed it somewhat to make it a little more palatable.

That presents a very interesting question, then: was the British Army aware of the originator of their particular shade of saffron was the leader of the Easter Rebellion?

The Irish Regiments had adopted some Irish Nationalist symbols, such as a the Shamrock and Harp, with a crown added, of course, to make it "politically correct", for lack of a better term -- although Lord Kitchner refused to allow the 16th (Irish) Division a Green "Harp Flag" during their service in WWI because of its Nationalist associations. Ironically, John Redmond's moderate Volunteer forces used the Green Harp flag, and it was the association with the Redmondites that caused it to fall out of favour with the more radical Irish Republicans, who later adopted the Tricolour.

Interesting to think about, though...

T.

[Moosehead]

That presents a very interesting question, then: was the British Army aware of the originator of their particular shade of saffron was the leader of the Easter Rebellion?

Probably not! At this point, it wouldn't surprise me to find that the man who suggested it might have been a graduate of St. Enda's.

Also, re. the green harp flag, for those who were not aware, green was not the original colour. It was, in fact, blue. St. Patrick's blue and the harp.