tartan question

**macwilkin** · 31st January 07, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by McClef

As far as I know only one Stewart (Stuart) branch still has an acknowledged Chief - the Appin one I think.

But he isn't listed on http://www.rampantscotland.com/know/...clanchiefs.htm whilst the Queen is but as "Royal House" which indicates that this is considered a clan in its own right.

On the Standing Council of Scottish Chief's web site lists only one Stuart/Stewart as a member:

Stuart of Bute: THE MOST HON THE MARQUESS OF BUTE

Regards,

Todd

**SnakeEyes** · 31st January 07, 05:16 PM

If you're a citizen of Canada or another commonwealth nation you're 'allowed' to wear Royal Stewart. As one of the Queen's Subjects, you've sworn allegiance to her Clan, and therefore you can wear the tartan, but I'm not sure if this applies to all of the Stewart tartans. Like I said, it's only if you are a citizen of commonwealth nation... but as other's have said... wear what you like!

**macwilkin** · 31st January 07, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by SnakeEyes

If you're a citizen of Canada or another commonwealth nation you're 'allowed' to wear Royal Stewart. As one of the Queen's Subjects, you've sworn allegiance to her Clan, and therefore you can wear the tartan, but I'm not sure if this applies to all of the Stewart tartans. Like I said, it's only if you are a citizen of commonwealth nation... but as other's have said... wear what you like!

I've read this before, but I can't say I've ever seen anything "official" regarding the use of Royal Stewart by HM's subjects. I daresay it is similar to the flying of the Lion Rampant flag by HM's subjects; whilst technically prohibited, since the flag is the personal flag of the sovereign, a decree in 1934 stated that it may be flown on certain occasions as a token of loyalty to the Crown. The prohibition on flying it is largely ignored today.

Royal Stewart at one time was a personal tartan of the sovereign, and was awarded to the pipers of the Black Watch, the Kings Own Scottish Borderers, the Royal Scots and other Scottish regiments to wear in recognition of their bravery and service.

It is out of respect to these regiments that I would not wear the Royal Stewart tartan.

Regards,

Todd

**SnakeEyes** · 31st January 07, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by cajunscot

I've read this before, but I can't say I've ever seen anything "official" regarding the use of Royal Stewart by HM's subjects. I daresay it is similar to the flying of the Lion Rampant flag by HM's subjects; whilst technically prohibited, since the flag is the personal flag of the sovereign, a decree in 1934 stated that it may be flown on certain occasions as a token of loyalty to the Crown. The prohibition on flying it is largely ignored today.

Royal Stewart at one time was a personal piper of the sovereign, and was awarded to the pipers of the Black Watch, the Kings Own Scottish Borderers, the Royal Scots and other Scottish regiments to wear in recognition of their bravery and service.

It is out of respect to these regiments that I would not wear the Royal Stewart tartan.

Regards,

Todd

Unfortunatley, I'm going to have to agree with you on this. I looked into it a little further, and apparently there is nothing official.

And I have to ask, since you won't wear Royal Stewart, does that mean you won't wear Black Watch or Leatherneck?

Also, don't forget about the other regiments who wear Royal Stewart. 1st Canadian Mounted Rifles CEF, and 3rd Battalion The Royal Australian Regiment are examples, and I'm sure there are more. Just want to make sure everyone who needs rememberin' gets remembered.

Lastly, I just want to point out I'm not trying to be snotty here. Sometimes tone can be lost in cyberspace. I know you're a mod, and I have the utmost respect for you. I know you're older (probably) and more knowledgable about this stuff than I am. I really am appreciative of what you and the other senior members here at X-Marks do.

**macwilkin** · 31st January 07, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by SnakeEyes

Unfortunatley, I'm going to have to agree with you on this. I looked into it a little further, and apparently there is nothing official.

And I have to ask, since you won't wear Royal Stewart, does that mean you won't wear Black Watch or Leatherneck?

Also, don't forget about the other regiments who wear Royal Stewart. 1st Canadian Mounted Rifles CEF, and 3rd Battalion The Royal Australian Regiment are examples, and I'm sure there are more. Just want to make sure everyone who needs rememberin' gets remembered.

Lastly, I just want to point out I'm not trying to be snotty here. Sometimes tone can be lost in cyberspace. I know you're a mod, and I have the utmost respect for you. I know you're older (probably) and more knowledgable about this stuff than I am. I really am appreciative of what you and the other senior members here at X-Marks do.

No worries, Snakeyes. You are quite correct in mentioning all of the other regiments who wear the Royal Stewart:

http://www.regiments.org/tradition/tartans/stuartro.htm

In answer to your question, my first kilt was actually a Government Sett surplus kilt from the Black Watch of Canada (made by Thomas Gordon & Sons, Glasgow) -- I used for a while in a British reenacting group I was a part of, but then sold it to another member when I bought another kilt.

In general, the only military tartans I would wear would be the Mackenzie of Seaforth because of an honourary association I have with a Canadian regiment for some research I did, and their pipe band wears that tartan. I would not feel at all right wearing the Leatherneck tartan, since I have not served in the USMC. For reenacting a particular unit, yes -- but for "everyday" wear, no.

One "military" tartan I might consider would be the Federal or Union Memorial tartan, a "fashion" tartan designed to honor the Union Soldiers of the Civil War, since so many of ancestors served in the Union Army.

And btw -- I'm not that much older than you!

Even if it is "unofficial" about the Royal Stewart and HM's subjects, it's a good reason to wear the tartan in my book!

Cheers,

Todd

**Warlock** · 31st January 07, 06:21 PM

Out of respect, I asked the Marines if they would mind if I wore the Leatherneck Tartan kilt. If you read it's description, it states that it is for Marines and those who wish to Honour them. I never had the Priviledge of serving in my beloved Corps, But would like to have one to Honour them. Not to mention that it is a darn fine tartan! They were very supportive. If you wear any tartan out of Pride or Respect, I believe it would be acceptable. If you chose not to wear a tartan out of Respect, then I am sure no one will fault you for that, either. As everyone here states: "wear what you like!"
More power to you, Laddie!

**M. A. C. Newsome** · 31st January 07, 06:42 PM

There seem to be two schools of thought regarding the Royal Stewart tartan. One is that because it is a "Royal" tartan its use should be limited to the Royal family and those they have authorized to use it. The second is more in line with what Snakeyes has said, that any "subject of the Queen" can wear it, making it effectively a universal tartan.

I'd like to point out that in neither scenario is it considered a proper clan tartan.

Rather than looking for written decrees or pronouncements, as so much of tartan culture and lore arises from how the tartans are actualy used, you can learn quite a bit by looking at how the Royal Stewart tartan is used in practice.

The Royal Stewart tartan is perhaps one of the most commonly used tartans, found in all manner of attire and products. Everything from rental kilts, scarves, ball caps, wrapping paper, shortbread tins, flannel shirts, pajamas and undergarments use this popular tartan. If indeed it is to be restricted in any way in its use, it sure doesn't seem to be treated as such by the tartan industry.

While I respect those who beleive its use should be limited, based on actual usage of the tartan, I lean towards those who hold to a more general useage.

There are many tartans based on the Royal Stewart, Black Stewart being one of them (Dress Stewart is another). As they are based on the Royal Stewart design, one could argue that they are also appropriate for general use. Of course they are popular among the Stewarts, because of the name. One can make an argument either way for their use by non-clan members.

The Hunting Stewart tartan, despite the name, has always been considered a general use tartan.

The many "Stewart of..." tartans (Stewart of Atholl, Stewart of Appin, etc) reflect specific branches of that clan.

So if someone is looking for a Clan Stewart tartan that represents the whole clan (not a specific branch) and will not be confused for a general use tartan, I would suggest the Old Stewart tartan.

M

**Warlock** · 31st January 07, 08:11 PM

The Master has Spoken! I agree with M.A.C. Newsome!

**Riverkilt** · 31st January 07, 10:57 PM

Boy, I'm with Matt. If WalMart can mass merchandise Black Stewart tartan shirts made in China I'm guessing no one much cares if you wear a Black Stewart kilt, clansman or not. Never mind the Royal Stewarts use on most anything like Matt says.

And JEEZ LOUISE Todd...did you just add to my extended wish list?? Union Memorial Tartan...Two of my Great great grandfathers fought for the Union...Edmund Root and Pearl Forrest Blake...gotta go find a pic of that one.

Ron

**SnakeEyes** · 1st February 07, 05:12 AM

Originally Posted by cajunscot

One "military" tartan I might consider would be the Federal or Union Memorial tartan, a "fashion" tartan designed to honor the Union Soldiers of the Civil War, since so many of ancestors served in the Union Army.

I found a Confederate Memorial Tartan here, which is alright, but I can't seem to find a Union or Federal Memorial Tartan. Do you happen to have a link?