Hot Stuff!

[Mr. MacDougall]

If the USS Stark incident taught us anything, it taught us that all kinds of fabric burn. Not, perhaps, with the vehemence displayed by the Gold Brothers' acrylic fabric (which, as I've mentioned elsewhere, is a different fabric from that used by Stillwater), but they will burn. And, as I've said elsewhere, most of us don't stand near open flames in our daily lives.

I don't appreciate McMurdo's polarization of the kilt community, and the way he's worded it seems calculated to start arguments. I, for one, have acrylic kilts, wool kilts, polyviscose kilts, and cotton canvas kilts. I, for one, have hand- and machine-sewn kilts. I, for one, have paid as little as $30 for a kilt, and as much as $500. I, for one, think there's room in the kilt industry for all kinds of kilts, and in the community for all kinds of kilties.

I also believe in truth in advertising, and in being aware of what you buy. Lads, stay away from open flame in your acrylic kilts. Stay away from the hot exhaust of motorcycles and other vehicles. Other than that, wear your kilts, show your kilted pride, and have a nice day.

[James MacMillan]

I, for one, have acrylic kilts, wool kilts, polyviscose kilts, and cotton canvas kilts. I, for one, have hand- and machine-sewn kilts. I, for one, have paid as little as $30 for a kilt, and as much as $500. I, for one, think there's room in the kilt industry for all kinds of kilts, and in the community for all kinds of kilties.

I may be misguided, but I think that the modern kilt wearer fits the above. There are quality synthetic fabrics and there are cheap synthetic fabrics. The olf saying that "You get what you pay for!" is still true!

I also "think there's room in the kilt industry for all kinds of kilts, and in the community for all kinds of kilties."

Well said! Thanks Mr. MacDougall.

[Nick Fiddes]

What follows is personal opinion... with apologies to anyone it offends!

First, on the issue of safety, I have to agree with Mr. MacDougall that most of us don't stand near flames on a daily basis. And I think that is exactly why such garments are so dangerous. We're not instinctively aware of their danger... It's like driving on snow. If we did so daily we'd have few accidents. So it's that time when we're strutting around a trendy nightclub feeling ever so cool as the ladies are admiring our stand-out dress sense. And we forget to be aware that the low table beside us has a candle on it. You get the rest... (remember - 20 seconds!)

As for whether plastic kilts (and let's not kid ourselves, for that's what oil-derived fibres basically are) are 'real' is, I accept, a matter of opinion. If your idea of a kilt is defined by its shape, then indeed anything goes. But if your definition, like mine, encompasses ideas of tradition and authenticity, then there is surely a hierarchy of quality.

Don't get me wrong. I have a collection of kilts of my own that include denim, leather, and one-off overprinted kilt2 specials that no one else on earth has. But these are fashion garments, in natural materials (that just don't burn remotely as easily!) which extend the kilt's heritage in exciting new directions, rather than mocking it. As such they are part of the evolving tradition. Artificial wools to me are very different -- a second-rate copy of the original, designed to deceive; they add little of merit to the tradition but only ape the real thing, and badly in my opinion.

There's also the issue of provenance. Most woollen kilting fabrics are woven in Scotland, by people who understand tartan traditions, and know how to create things like a kilting selvedge. Most cheap substitute fabrics are woven in low-cost economies where no one, frankly, gives a monkey's for all that nonsense. The patterns often look close, but are often just wrong! To anyone that knows about tartan to wear the wrong sett would be a humiliating embarrassment. (Translation: think of an LA Lakers fan shouting support for the "Cakers" if you want to get the feel!) You may well not care about this, but some of us do.

Then there's the fact that by buying imported copies instead of the real thing you are helping to destroy the traditional industry. I admit some self interest here. But I also feel genuinely aggrieved on behalf of my nation knowing that if recent trends continue the culture that not only upholds authentic tradition but is also the wellspring of much innovation will simply be destroyed. Over-dramatising? If you saw the rate at which the genuine producers were collapsing in this country due to the copyists work you might not say so. Again, you may take the view that this is inevitable and saving your cash is all that counts, and so just not care. But I do.

So I doubt I'll ever wear a plastic one as to me they will always look and feel like a cheap substitute. It's the same reason I adore butter and detest margarine, which leaves a nasty acrid taste in my throat. It's like thinking a mass-produced print is as good as the original Mona Lisa, because it looks much the same from a distance. It's like saying a tribute band is as good as seeing the Stones live. It's like... oh, you get the idea.

Artificial fibres are a necessary compromise for anyone allergic to wool (which is why Scotweb / KiltStore sells expertly made polyviscose ones ourselves). But otherwise I can only see them as second best. That's my own aesthetic judgement.

And of course I know not everyone can easily afford a full traditional kilt hand-made for them. This is a luxury product. But, in my own eyes (and I suspect most lovers of Scottish tradition would say the same) I'd have far more respect when I see someone in a slightly moth-eaten second-hand example in any old tartan than in a plastic substitute for the real thing. Same price. :-)

Okay, I'm sure I've made enough enemies now... please flame me nicely!

[Hamish]

............................
Okay, I'm sure I've made enough enemies now... please flame me nicely!

I see no enemies, Nick. In my opinion, every word you have written there is absolutely true. Very well stated, Sir.

[ccga3359]

When you describe acrylic kilts as "plastic" you are correct, however you don't refer to your polyviscous kilts as "plastic" only as an alternative to those allergic to wool. Rest assured PV is also very much plastic. All materials will burn, the problem is that many man-made fibres melt. They also do have a lower ignition point than many natural fibres. Short of wearing Nomex kilts any kilt is in danger near open flame. Then again should the cheaper acrylic kilts have some type of flame retardant in order to be sold to the public? This would be of great public service. However we must ask, is there a a sudden abundance of kilties bursting into flames.

Nick you do however raise an important point and one that should be investigated scientifically. However I feel that this has been clouded by your obvious prejudice/dislike/distrust to the tartan tat/Gold brothers. Seperately both are valid points but should be kept seperate or be lost in some tirade. Might I suggest, all kilt maker/sellers of 'repute' organize and investigate the flammability issues.

[MartinGrenoble]

I can't help feeling that there are two standards here (and I am not referring to Nick's diatribe, but a to the writings of a number of Xmarks members over the years.

It seems to be fashionable here to trash anything coming out of the east, however wearable and however acceptably made. On the other hand, if it is made in USA, of equally non-traditinal materials, than it is wonderful.

I have bought kilts of both origins.

One with the "Scottish design" label, is fine and has had plenty of use. It is surely "mixed fibres", but the feel and appearance are acceptably wool-like and it hangs well. After a couple of years, the stitches are still in place, and the kilt has kept its shape.

Another kilt, from across the ocean, had to be sent back, it was so poorly mounted. The manner in which the upper half was stitched up bore no ressemblance to the careful tapering of a traditional kilt. It was remade and returned to me. It still did not look or feel right. I finally unstitched the whole thing and made it up again myself. It is all cotton, feels and looks good in summer.

If you are, or have been, in Edinburgh, you may well know what you are talking about, and be rightly saddened that more cheap kilts are bought than good ones. If, however, you live the other side of the Atlantic, I wonder how accurately you can make comparisons.

Note that I am thinking more of the quality of the workmanship than of the fabrics used.

Are we taking our loyalties a little too far sometimes?

Martin

[berserkbishop]

As for whether plastic kilts (and let's not kid ourselves, for that's what oil-derived fibres basically are) are 'real' is, I accept, a matter of opinion. If your idea of a kilt is defined by its shape, then indeed anything goes. But if your definition, like mine, encompasses ideas of tradition and authenticity, then there is surely a hierarchy of quality.

Don't get me wrong. I have a collection of kilts of my own that include denim, leather, and one-off overprinted kilt2 specials that no one else on earth has. But these are fashion garments, in natural materials (that just don't burn remotely as easily!) which extend the kilt's heritage in exciting new directions, rather than mocking it. As such they are part of the evolving tradition. Artificial wools to me are very different -- a second-rate copy of the original, designed to deceive; they add little of merit to the tradition but only ape the real thing, and badly in my opinion.


Artificial fibres are a necessary compromise for anyone allergic to wool (which is why Scotweb / KiltStore sells expertly made polyviscose ones ourselves). But otherwise I can only see them as second best. That's my own aesthetic judgement.

This is where my feathers became ruffled, and I probably posted my previous thought without giving it enough consideration; so Nick, let me clarify what I mean. I DO NOT think that you should start another account. You have a right to an opinion as much as I do, but sometimes biting comments, whether intentional or not, can cut deep for unseen reasons. Now without going into a sob story I am going to tell you what threw me into a little tizzy. I was a foster kid, and through the events that led to that status, I really didnt have much contact with extended blood family. I always knew I was somewhat Scottish but that fact didnt come to life until recently as I have been struggling to build strong personal relationships with this extended family. I have done research and learned a lot and I really feel proud to have Scottissh blood running through my veins. The first time I put on a kilt in the MacLeod tartan the feeling was indescribable. When I read what you wrote about my kilt-o-synthetic fibers apeing the tradition it cut deep. As I stated, I am having a tank custom made for me, but I still feel the pride when I wear my SWK. It is the best I could do with the money I had at the time. I dont wear it to destroy the tradition of a wool kilt, I wear it because it is an affordable way to show my pride in my heritage. I never said that it was authentic and when people inquire about my kilt I am more than happy to explain what an "authentic" kilt is and why they are great. I dont necessarily disagree that PV or acrylic is secondary, but right now it is my primary and I will wear it with pride. Oh, and to put your mind at ease I was just spouting off about not ordering. . . you have some great deals and a well put together website. Again I apologize if my first post was to biting. I appreciate your support of this forum. My order for 8 meters of double with 16 oz Cunningham will be in soon!

[Frank McGrath]

My first kilt had (has) that same label on it. It was an imported import. My next kilt is a Rocky special. There is a sign in his shop that says something about value will beat cheap any day. Rocky knows this, that is why he put up the sign. It was the last thing I saw wwhen I left hios shop and I believe it.

[RockyR]

My first kilt had (has) that same label on it. It was an imported import. My next kilt is a Rocky special. There is a sign in his shop that says something about value will beat cheap any day. Rocky knows this, that is why he put up the sign. It was the last thing I saw wwhen I left hios shop and I believe it.

"The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the cheap price is forgotten."

[Bob C]

But seriously, making millions by shamelessly selling life-threatening crap to adults, let alone to kids, utterly disgusts me.

What's your take on the tobacco industry?

As for the flaming demonstration, my wife's pantyhose would react to flames the same way. Are you advocating that all acrylic fabrics be banned?