Irish Tartans Questions

[James MacMillan]

But even though the tartan itself is old, that just means it existed back then. It didn't have any official recognition.

Official recognition is itself a very slippery slope. What is "Official?" For Scottish Clans, it has come to be the Clan Chief's seal of approval. For other odd organizations, like an up-start internet clan , it is general acceptance and use. Business', Club's, Countries, Counties, Cities, Reunions, etc etc all have a right to "Officially" establish a tartan.

Take my beloved Leatherneck tartan, for instance. Through the hard work of Bob Hall, who designed and registered our tartan, the Marines have something that they call their own. Has the Marine Corps sanctioned or made this tartan "Official?" NO. Does that mean that all Marines, past and present are any less proud to wear it? No.

By far the best thing that you can do regarding wearing any tartan, and I mean any, is to make peace with yourself for wearing it. If you feel more comfortable wearing a district tartan, then, by all means do so.

There is also nothing that says you can't design a tartan yourself and place your own name, or the name of your beloved, on it.

and before I forget from Sunny Southern California!

[macwilkin]

But even though the tartan itself is old, that just means it existed back then. It didn't have any official recognition.

That wasn't my point, Dave. My point was that the Ulster tartan did not originate in the 19th century, when Irish nationalists began to adopt Highland attire as some sort of "pan-Celtic" garment.

Todd

[turpin]

If your wife is an American whose family has roots in Virginia, it might be more historically accurate to dress her as a native American of the Powhatan tribe, since many Bowlings are descended from them through Pocahantas (as am I.) Of course, the neighbors are likely to gossip about exposed tattooed bosoms, but that's a small price to pay for historical accuracy.

Gil! And from a monk, no less. You sly devil!

[porrick]

I find the obsession of "recognition" and "official" interesting


I don't need an agency, clan chief or some book to tell me what is "recognized" and "official".

1. I feel superbly comfortable wearing kilts
2. I like or dislike certain tartans
3. the quality of the garment is in the fabric and the kiltmaker
4. the positive attention and interest in the garment I get when wearing it
5. I wear my kilts with pride

Do any of the above points become more or less valid if a kilt has someone's stamp of approval? If someone's approval is of concern, I must be that of the missus.

I'm proud of wearing what has by some been coined "fashion tartans", and often with the hint of "merely" to it. Though not a term I use.
How about these two definitions of "fashion" given in Collins Cobuild:

The fashion in which someone does something or in which something happens is the way in which it happens or is done.

If someone or something fashions you, your attitudes, or your future, they have an influence on you which affects your development.

Are the above two definitions not applicable to tartans that are "recognized"?

I'm waiting for somebody to chime in with the definition of fashion as something in the line of "that change as people's ideas and taste change". Well, I certainly hope that definition doesn't apply to "fashion tartans", as that would knock us all on the head:

the very reason we all are here enjoying eachother's company and common (recent) interest in this delightful garment.

Oh, another point I find interesting: "yes, but the Irish tartans are all of recent date"
True, precisely as the establishment of the present day "official" tartans once were "recently" designed and brand-new on the marked

I thoroughly enjoy history in general, and genealogy especially. But, maybe sometimes the obsession with the so-called historical correct may get in the way of ongoing development. After all, in a one to two hundred year cultural pespective, how can we single out certain tartan designs as being ancient/old/historical? (just a rhetorical question, so answer not required)

OK, just my 2c worth to balance things out and show line of thinking - and have no intention of debating with those of you who find my thoughts and feelings (as) invalid (as yours).

Enjoy proud kilting - tartan or not.

PS
Just thought about one thing:
Cheap, poor quality Pakistani-made officially regognized MacClansept tartan kilts - as opposed to my fashion kilts designed, woven and hand-sewn in Scotland? Hmm, now that's a culturally tough one...

[TheKiltedWonder]

If your wife is an American whose family has roots in Virginia, it might be more historically accurate to dress her as a native American of the Powhatan tribe, since many Bowlings are descended from them through Pocahantas (as am I.) Of course, the neighbors are likely to gossip about exposed tattooed bosoms, but that's a small price to pay for historical accuracy.

Wow. I went to some school with some bowlings from williamsburg. I had no idea!

As for the Irish tartans, you can find official family ones. Have you tried looking for a family association? Perhaps they can sort it out the official one, it that's what maters to you. I've got Doyle blood and there's a Clan Doyle organization that created an official tartan you can only get from them (too bad they seem to have stopped functioning about 6 years ago), but I've seen weaver's selling a blue Doyle tartan. One is official and unobtainable, the other is unofficial but for sale. Which is better?
Each mill weaves its own county tartan, so shop for the one that looks best to you! And if any one says that your tartan is relatively recent, point out that many of the Scottish Family tartans are fairly recent as well. In the future, Irish tartans may well be accepted as widely as the Scottish ones. Only time will tell...

[gilmore]

Wow. I went to some school with some bowlings from williamsburg. I had no idea!
...

Maybe they didn't know. Maybe they knew and didn't care. It is estimated that Pocahantas has around 3 million descendants living at the present time, so it's not a rare thing.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Whether or not a tartan is "official" does indeed matter -- but only as much as you want it to.

While I certainly don't think anyone should be derided for choosing to wear a fashion tartan, I also don't think anyone should be derided for caring whether their tartan is official or not.

Just to give one example, several past cheifs of the Clan Campbell have made the point of stating that the Black Watch tartan is the official tartan for the clan. There are other approved clan tartans, such as Campbell of Cawdor, Campbell of Louden, and Campbell of Breadalbabe. But they have specifically pointed out that the so-called "Campbell of Argyll" and Dress Campbell are not proper clan tartans and should only be considered fashion or fancy tartans. And the "red Campbell" tartan? No such thing, as far as the cheifs are concerned.

Now, if you happen to like the Campbell of Argyll tartan and want to wear it despite what the cheif says, no one is going to fault you for it.

On the other hand, if by wearing your tartan you are attempting to show your pride and allegiance to your clan, it may be very important to you what the cheif of that clan declares the true clan tartan to be. The fact that the cheif has specifically said that this is not regarded as a clan tartan will be important in your decision.

[macwilkin]

Whether or not a tartan is "official" does indeed matter -- but only as much as you want it to.

While I certainly don't think anyone should be derided for choosing to wear a fashion tartan, I also don't think anyone should be derided for caring whether their tartan is official or not.

Just to give one example, several past cheifs of the Clan Campbell have made the point of stating that the Black Watch tartan is the official tartan for the clan. There are other approved clan tartans, such as Campbell of Cawdor, Campbell of Louden, and Campbell of Breadalbabe. But they have specifically pointed out that the so-called "Campbell of Argyll" and Dress Campbell are not proper clan tartans and should only be considered fashion or fancy tartans. And the "red Campbell" tartan? No such thing, as far as the cheifs are concerned.

Now, if you happen to like the Campbell of Argyll tartan and want to wear it despite what the cheif says, no one is going to fault you for it.

On the other hand, if by wearing your tartan you are attempting to show your pride and allegiance to your clan, it may be very important to you what the cheif of that clan declares the true clan tartan to be. The fact that the cheif has specifically said that this is not regarded as a clan tartan will be important in your decision.

Well said, Matt. As I have stated many times, my traditionalist views on Highland attire are directed only at myself. As someone stated earlier, choosing what tartan you wear is very much a personal matter, and for some, an "official" status might be part of their criteria. I know when I ordered my Cumming Hunting kilt, I couldn't decide between the modern & ancient colours. I then saw a photo of our Chief, Sir Alistair, and noted that he was wearing the latter, so I decided to wear those as well in honour of them.

I think there is certainly a place for fashion tartans, and I wouldn't begrudge anyone for wearing them. It really is a matter of mutual respect.

Regards,

Todd

[Gàidhlig]

I think the key to my situation is that there doeasn't seem to be any "Official" tartans for my wifes family. There seem to be tartans for the irish counties, but If I read everyones posts correctly, how "official" those are varies from county to county without much importance to the county itself to declare an official tartan should there not be one because the Irish didn't really have tartans to begin with.
SO basically....I should just go with the Kerry county Tartan, and then even though this tartan may vary from vendor to vendor, just pick the one I like best and give it to her.

Right?

Silly me...here I was thinking this would be a simple question and answer forum.

[porrick]

Silly me...here I was thinking this would be a simple question and answer forum.

Hehe, been there done that. There are numerous simple questions and at times ditto answers, but forumites at times tend to derail and lose sight of the issue or original. I guess a result of many people with many interests and wanting to, eh, I'll stop here

Don't let it deter you