X Marks the Scot - An on-line community of kilt wearers.

   X Marks Partners - (Go to the Partners Dedicated Forums )
USA Kilts website Celtic Croft website Celtic Corner website Houston Kiltmakers

User Tag List

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 35

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Join Date
    8th January 08
    Location
    The Bayou City - Houston, TX
    Posts
    6,730
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick the DSM View Post
    I agree with this!
    I can see the father sitting in the livingroom in his leine and brat when his teenage son comes bounding down the stairs wearing a tartan great kilt, "Hold on there, son!! You're not going outside of the blackhouse in THAT!!"

  2. #2
    Join Date
    15th October 09
    Posts
    21
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Well...this dude was wearing pants and felt kinda restricted, so he just went from there...

  3. #3
    Join Date
    30th June 04
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    1,339
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Woodsheal:

    I understand about not needing trousers! It's the transition from the leine to the kilt that flabbergasts me. Matt's article on the leine indicated that it was "hike-uppable"---a long tunic that could be raised up to/above the knee and belted in place.

    Sometimes I think the past is like a pointillist picture---there are a few dots in place, and we rely on our mind's eye to fill in the blanks and create a coherent picture.

    I can imagine a combination of KDBurke and Jack Daw's suggestions. "So," says Jock, "there I was in Mistress Graham's bower, when suddenly the Graham himself returned! What did I do? Why, I grabbed my brat and hied myself thither, at speed. My leine, I had to leave it behind . . . . and so I wrapped my brat about myself, and came back a-home."

  4. #4
    Join Date
    6th July 07
    Location
    The Highlands,Scotland.
    Posts
    15,798
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    No! It was not me, honest!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    17th March 07
    Location
    Harbor Springs, MI
    Posts
    391
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think necessity is the mother of invention and no, I'm not original in that thought!

    In my way of thinking about this, the shirt worn was the basic piece of clothing and was a long shirt, really more like a tunic in itself. I have read that poor folk might have only had a shirt/tunic as their only piece of clothing. The great kilt is/was essentially a blanket that people adapted to carry around with them all of the time. It served as a piece of clothing, providing warmth and protection from the elements and frankly is very versatile in that regard; hanging down it is not as warm, wrapped around the torso it provides warmth, up over the head it protects from precipitaion, etc. Being creative with the arrangements of the upper folds it provides storage space to carry things. When it was time to bed down it was a blanket, mattress, tarp/tent, etc.

    I think we forget that up until a couple of hundred years ago, most people spent the greatest portion of their lives outdoors and for many people shelter was very basic. Plenty of men would have lived a good portion of their lives in the field, tending flocks, hunting, etc. As Woodsheal pointed out, the Highlanders were not a horse culture and would not have required a bifurcated garment and wearing a functional garment made of material that dried easily while living in a wet environment would have come about pretty naturally.

    I think the problem we have in conceptualizing this is that we try to reconstruct the logic going backwards confronted now with more of a fashionable garment that evolved from a garment of necessity. Indeed as time went on, fashion and art began to play a role in the development of the kilt, as it does with most things in peoples' lives as evidenced from the oldest artifacts we have of human civilizations.
    Ken

    "The best things written about the bagpipe are written on five lines of the great staff" - Pipe Major Donald MacLeod, MBE

  6. #6
    Join Date
    8th March 09
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    2,727
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    it came about from necessity... read the thread posted by kilted kiwi about the blanket shawl/kilt (a comparison of usage).. movement in a wet climate, pants were a hinderance..a garment evolved by the working society.. and by lovers... lol but sometimes what is seen as a digression to some, is a step forward by others.. and for the environment, it was/is well suited.
    “Don’t judge each day by the harvest you reap, but by the seeds you plant.”
    – Robert Louis Stevenson

  7. #7
    Join Date
    17th December 07
    Location
    Staunton, Va
    Posts
    4,948
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Another possibility...

    I am of the opinion that the great kilt was brought about by three separate factors. The first being the more wide spread use of firearms in the Highlands; the second being the heavy export of both flax and finished linen from Scotland; the third being a general increase in poverty throughout the Highlands, at this time

    Prior to the appearance of the great kilt, the typical dress of the Highlander would have been coarse linen trousers reaching to somewhere between the knee and ankle; leather shoes similar to the moccasins of the American Indians, and a linen shirt reaching to mid-thigh, or perhaps as far as the knee. Over this, in time of war, would have been worn the Leine Croich-- a knee length jacket, padded and pleated as a sort of "soft armour". The Highland soldier would have also worn a chain mail coif over his head and shoulders, and a padded leather "arming cap" under a pointed conical iron helmet. A plaid would also have been worn (or carried) to serve as a cloak or blanket as the case may be. Add to this a short spear or pike, a sword, as well as a shield, and your typical Highland warrior was as well protected as could be expected. Until the appearance of firearms. The Liene Croich was probably the first item to fall by the wayside as a result of this technological advance in waging war.

    As the Highlands (and, indeed, all of Scotland) continued to slowly sink into a vast and inescapable pit of economic depression, the export of linen dried up local supplies, with the result that by 1686 a pair of ordinary linen breeches were worth 4 pounds-- more money than many Highlanders would see in a year. Bereft of liene croich, and unable to afford linen trousers, the Highlander simply wrapped his plaid around his waist and made do as best he could.

    It is my opinion that it was the increase in the use of "gonnes" coinciding with the lack of the availability of inexpensive linen, that caused the almost "overnight" appearance of the kilt. In other parts of Europe-- and this includes Ireland-- where people lived in mountainous regions, tended flocks, were out in all weathers, the kilt did not evolve, and trousers remained the mainstay of masculine attire.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    4th March 09
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    817
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    MoR-
    Can you clarify your connection between the increasing prevalence of guns and the decreasing use of the liene croich? Are you saying that because it was no longer an effective form of "soft armor" against firearms that it was no longer used?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    17th December 07
    Location
    Staunton, Va
    Posts
    4,948
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by NewEnglander View Post
    MoR-
    Can you clarify your connection between the increasing prevalence of guns and the decreasing use of the liene croich? Are you saying that because it was no longer an effective form of "soft armor" against firearms that it was no longer used?
    This is a bit of an over simplification but, broadly speaking, yes. Firearms altered basic battle tactics throughout Europe, and Scotland wasn't immune to these changes. That said, the adjustment in tactics along with the need to dispense with soft armour didn't happen overnight. Like anything else it was a gradual process that saw the 10th century liene croich virtually disappearing by the end of the 16th century.
    Last edited by MacMillan of Rathdown; 19th October 09 at 08:36 AM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    6th July 09
    Location
    McGehee, AR
    Posts
    211
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/b...ighlight=Birth

    I do believe this was best answered here.

    Robert

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

» Log in

User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.2.0