Difficulty of Matriculating Arms?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

A few years ago, I was told by a member of the Society of Scottish Armigers that, for US citizens, you only need to show descent from someone who was a subject of The Crown (the King/Queen) prior to Sept 3, 1783 (the date the Treaty of Paris was signed ending the Revolutionary War). This person didn't necessarily have to be Scottish, just "a subject of the crown", but I think that's the general presumption.

I think the person you spoke to may have confused the general attitude of the College of Arms in London with the practice of the Lyon Court. The court of the Lord Lyon is generally pleased to grant arms to virtuous and well deserving persons born in Scotland, normally resident in Scotland, and those of Scottish descent residing elsewhere.

Born is Scotland is pretty self-explanatory; normally resident means just that-- a university student or a company executive (not a Crown subject) living in Scotland would be qualified to seek out a grant of arms from the Lord Lyon. As far as the Scottish diaspora is concerned let's say your great-great-grandfather was born in Dundee, Scotland, in 1856. Provided you could prove your descent (birth certificates, etc.) you would be entitled to apply for arms in Scotland, and all things being equal the Lord Lyon would be willing to grant them.

Descent through the female line is more difficult because of the tendency for children to assume the name of the father. In grants based on a Scottish ancestor the letters patent usually include the words "...and to the other descendants of (The Name of the Scottish Ancestor) the arms following, with such due and proper differences..."

In the instance of General Colin Powell his entitlement to arms was based first and foremost on his having been made an honourary knight in one of her majesty's orders of chivalry. The choice to seek the grant in Scotland may have been influenced by Powell's Scottish ancestry or by his desire to have "substantive arms" as opposed to the "honorary" arms devised by the College.

[EagleJCS]

I think the person you spoke to may have confused the general attitude of the College of Arms in London with the practice of the Lyon Court. The court of the Lord Lyon is generally pleased to grant arms to virtuous and well deserving persons born in Scotland, normally resident in Scotland, and those of Scottish descent residing elsewhere.

I stand corrected. Thanks for the clarification!

[JSFMACLJR]

I am an armiger, bearing arms granted by Lord Lyon. I inherited them upon the death of my father. He matriculated his arms from those granted to his forebearer.

The process was a wonderful learning process that took place over a roughly 4 0r 5 year period. We petitioned Lord Lyon for a grant of arms to my g-g-g grandfather, Donald McLean, who was born in Scotland and emigrated to Canada in 129. My father then petitioned for a matriculation of those arms in his own name, as a male descendant of Donald.

The Court of the Lord Lyon requires very extensive proofs. You cannot just say that your ancestor was Scottish born and you are the third son of a fourth son of a second son of a Scot. You must produce the documents, so that there is absolutely no doubt who you are, who the ancestor was, and that he fell within the jurisdiction of Lord Lyon. You must, if you are petitioning in memory of an anscestor, have the same surname as that person.

I suggest that you read all of the information available on three websites, so that you are familiar with the whole process. As a member of the Heraldry Society of Scotland and the Society of Scottish Armigers, I would be delighted to assist in any way.

Regards,
Sandford

Sites of note:
http://www.lyon-court.com/lordlyon/l...&p_applic=CCC&

http://www.scotarmigers.net/

http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/index.htm

[davidlpope]

Sandford,

Thanks. This is exactly the sort of first-hand information I was hoping for. I appreciate the resource links.

David

[Jack Daw]

I am an armiger, bearing arms granted by Lord Lyon. I inherited them upon the death of my father. He matriculated his arms from those granted to his forebearer...We petitioned Lord Lyon for a grant of arms to my g-g-g grandfather, Donald McLean, who was born in Scotland...My father then petitioned for a matriculation of those arms in his own name, as a male descendant of Donald...You must, if you are petitioning in memory of an anscestor, have the same surname as that person.

Regards,
Sandford

All your information is spot on with the LL's webby that I had read previously. Unfortunately, I was unaware that my last name had to match for whom I'm petitioning. I was going to petition for one of my Scottish great-grandfathers, but we do not share the same last name. I will need to work further on my surname genealogy a bit more before I can start that process, I suppose. Ho-hum. Thanks for sparing me wasted effort.

[Standard]

Very interesting question, and helpful answers. This helps clear up some questions which I have also had about the process.

[McMurdo]

Thread moved to heraldry & tartans section.

[dfmacliam]

Just a silly question, not meaning to hijack the thread.. and not concerning me, but a general question.... what kind of expenses would someone expect to pay to receive such title? Just a ballpark figure... I do not want to delve into someones personal business..

[Chas]

Taken from:

http://www.lyon-court.com/lordlyon/232.html

•New Grant of shield alone, with or without motto £1,194
•New Grant of shield and crest, with or without motto £1,926

•New Grant of shield and crest, with or without motto to a commercial organisation £2,943
•New Grant of shield, crest, motto and supporters £2,597
•New Grant of shield, crest, motto and supporters to a commercial organisation £3,569
•Matriculation of previous Grant of shield alone, with or without motto £612
•Matriculation of previous Grant, including shield, crest and motto £712
•Matriculation of previous Grant including supporters £992
•Matriculation of previous Grant, with new supporters £1,388

So for a new grant it would be either £1,194 or £1,926. The rest would not apply.

Regards

Chas

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

North Americans can expect the fee for simple grant of arms (shield, Helmet, crest, and motto) to run to approximately GBP 2,200 including a fee of GBP 200 when lodging your petition. At the present rate of exchange this works out to something less than US $3,500.