St Andrew's day ink

[OC Richard]

...folks born in the UK really can't understand what it's like not to have history.

Sometimes it seems to be the reverse to me: so many Americans can trace their ancestry back several generations to a specific immigrant from The Old Country (whatever country that might be) and usually a specific place in that country. For example I'm descended from a guy who came to Jamestown from England in the 1620's, another who came to Virginia from London in 1762, another who came to Philadelphia from Co Cavan in the 1840's, and a family who came to Winnifrede, WV from Tywardreath, Cornwall in the 1880's.

My wife's boss is an English guy. One day the people in her office were talking about geneology and where they came from and he said that he had no idea about his family beyond his immediate relatives. Most Brits I've talked to seem to be like that: they don't think about such things because they didn't "come" from anywhere: they've 'always' been there.

We in the USA form organisations like The Sons of the American Revolution and we fondly recall our Civil War ancestors.

Can you imagine the English forming The Sons of the Battle of Hastings? They would laugh at the idea I think.

[Smitty]

Sorry, folks, didn't mean to open a can of worms with my post. The article evoked an emotional response, and I typed it before thinking.

Mods- if I was off-topic to the point of being out of line, I'll edit my post. The discussion seems to be friendly and constructive so far, though, so I'll leave it as is unless asked to do otherwise.

[Cavebear58]

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[MacBean]

I found some of the responses more interesting than the article. Some thoughts....

If 47,000 ex-English visited England each year (and I suspect they do), I wonder if you would even know they were there? In Scotland, with the sparser population, it makes an economic impact. I visit Scotland because I like it, just as I like England or Wales or Brazil, or any other place. Having Scottish ancestry does make some difference, but isn't the only reason.

The thing is that we of the New World don't have an identity in the same way that those of the Old have. We don't have traditions, and language, and history reaching back before civilization itself. Instead our identities are forged intentionally. If we pick Scottish identity, it is because we chose to. I do, my brothers don't, and that's fine. What I find harder to understand is those who berate New Worlders (Americans?) for affecting a Scottish identity. But then, I guess they get tired of noisy foreigners. As a child in England they embarassed me too.

[Nighthawk]

I found some of the responses more interesting than the article. Some thoughts....

If 47,000 ex-English visited England each year (and I suspect they do), I wonder if you would even know they were there? In Scotland, with the sparser population, it makes an economic impact. I visit Scotland because I like it, just as I like England or Wales or Brazil, or any other place. Having Scottish ancestry does make some difference, but isn't the only reason.

The thing is that we of the New World don't have an identity in the same way that those of the Old have. We don't have traditions, and language, and history reaching back before civilization itself. Instead our identities are forged intentionally. If we pick Scottish identity, it is because we chose to. I do, my brothers don't, and that's fine. What I find harder to understand is those who berate New Worlders (Americans?) for affecting a Scottish identity. But then, I guess they get tired of noisy foreigners. As a child in England they embarassed me too.

I felt a need to post a comment on that article. One thing the Old World Celts don't understand is that most of us aren't trying to be Scottish. We're trying to intentionally forge our own identity as New World Celts. It's nice to have ancestral traditions to draw from. And that's the point- we draw from those traditions, without trying to directly take them or to mimic them. In the post that I made, I mentioned that I see us in the new world as having a relationship to the Scots that is similar to the relationship that the Welsh have to them. We're cousins; not clansmen. When I meet a Scot or an Irishman, etc, I intentionally refer to him/her that way as a matter of fact, while New World Celts I refer to as brother.

[Phil]

The thing is that we of the New World don't have an identity in the same way that those of the Old have. We don't have traditions, and language, and history reaching back before civilization itself.

As a native of the "Old World" I don't see it that way. The thought that things around me are perhaps hundreds of years old never occurs to me. It is not a matter of living in the past, interesting as history may be. What does occur to me, however, is the fact that I belong to a single, distinct and identifiable nation whose values and traditions I was raised with and which I share with most of my compatriots. To be brought up in a "melting pot" with a bewildering range of values and traditions brought by immigrants from many disparate lands, none of which are allowed to prevail in the imperative for national unity, perhaps is the reason now for identifying with a distinct background and saying "This is where I choose to belong".

[KFCarter]

To be brought up in a "melting pot" with a bewildering range of values and traditions brought by immigrants from many disparate lands, none of which are allowed to prevail in the imperative for national unity, perhaps is the reason now for identifying with a distinct background and saying "This is where I choose to belong".

I think there's some truth to that, compounded further by the rootlessness of many folks here. I was born in Utah, raised in Chicago, South Carolina, Florida and eventually Georgia. Where am I from? Beats me.

I do know that my interest in my family's roots, and in particular the prominent Scottish roots, date back to a very early age, certainly before I was consciously aware of the "melting pot" and "rootlessness" issues... but perhaps they were playing a role even then.

[MacLowlife]

This article is also the subject of a thread "St Andrew's Day Ink" which also elicited some wise commentary. MODS, can they be merged?

[QMcK]

I'm shocked to see such a highly opinionated, derogatory article from the BBC.

[Bugbear]

... The thing is that we of the New World don't have an identity in the same way that those of the Old have. We don't have traditions, and language, and history reaching back before civilization itself. Instead our identities are forged intentionally. ...

I'm not so sure about that...