"Auld Lang Syne" Heresy

[thescot]

thescot.


Oh dear, you really have put me on the spot here! Haggis and Robert Burns are acquired tastes and I have to report that I have singularly failed to acquire the taste of either. So I am most certainly not the chap to ask! Sorry.

I may have to slit my wrists. I am crestfallen. Singularly disappointed and dismayed. Somehow, the world just isn't as bright as it was before, nor will it ever be again.

I confess that I acquired a taste for Burns only after I became an English teacher. Studying the poetry--more than just the usuals of "Mouse" and "Louse" and "My Luve... ' caused me to really admire his work and, dare I say it? (Dare, dare), genius. Then I began to read about his life and work and masonic affiliation, and, well, there you are. As for the haggis, it was love at first bite.

I guess I was thinking that it was the linguistic part of the article that I was hoping you might comment on. That "guid-willie" and "willy-waught" thing.

As to the versions, I copped the words for our program from a site that did have the willy-waught version and just didn't check to see if it was different anywhere else. It is, as mentioned. Apparently the article I stumbled onto was pretty old, 1897 in fact by Wm. Hand Browne, and copyrighted by the Johns Hopkins University Press. It was an article in the journal, Modern Language Notes, vol. vii, no 2. ("You can look it up." Yogi Berra) In fact, you can look it up here: http://www.jstor.org/pss/2919364

I'll put up a copy of the program and photos after the evening, of course. And I shall insist that we sing "guid willie-waught" and not "guid-willie waught." Bwahahahahahahaha.

[macwilkin]

Though I'm very much a fan of Burn's poems, I second your dislike for Haggis. It was a food for the poor, who couldn't afford anything better - like chitterlings in the American South. While it may have fed many a hungry family in times of woe and want, sheep's liver mixed with oatmeal, onions and a few seasonings, boiled in a stomach, really isn't my idea of a savory dish. BTW - the Cajuns in Louisanna have a very similar dish called boudain - it is made with liver, rice, green onions and some seasonings, stuffed into natural sausage casing (made from intestines). Oddly enough, many Cajuns in Louisanna bear Scottish surnames, rather than French ones as one might expect.

It's not so odd, as there are 3 ways to become a Cajun -- by the blood, the ring & the back door. My wife's family's surname, for example, was believed to originally Scottish -- Melanc(s)on -- which is claimed as a sept of the Macmillans. (other evidence points to a Yorkshire origin).

There are two types of boudin, btw -- boudin blanc and boudin rouge, the former being very similar to Haggis. And in a further twist, the French Foreign Legion's march is "Le Boudin":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyoLv_HVFJE

Here you are, some blood pudding, some blood pudding, some blood pudding For the Alsatians, the Swiss, and the Lorrains, For the Belgians, there's none left, They're lazy shirkers

Belgians were forbidden at one time from joining La Legion.

T.

[OC Richard]

The trouble with Burns' poetry is that it's written in a dialect of English that few speak, can read, or understand.

It's to some degree a foreign language to most English speakers.

So with any foreign-language poetry, what to do?

-Having a person familiar with the language read the poetry aloud in its original form conveys the intended sound to the listeners. But little of the meaning of the poetry is conveyed.

-Translate the poetry into English (or in Burns' case, Standard English) and you get the meaning but the entire sound-sense is lost.

What we often get here in the USA at Burns' Dinners is neither of the above. Instead we get people who cannot read or pronounce or understand Burns' poetry struggle along in a halting reading which conveys none of the sound that Burns intended. The audience gets neither sound nor meaning.

When poetry is stripped of both sound and meaning, what purpose is being served?

It would be like honouring Van Gogh in a room hung with horridly crudely distorted copies of his paintings done by untalented hacks. How thus is Van Gogh honoured?

I would say, in the absence of someone who actually speaks the Lowland Scots dialect to do the Burns' readings, simply raise a glass in his honour and sing Burns' songs etc.

[Standard]

The trouble with Burns' poetry is that it's written in a dialect of English that few speak, can read, or understand.
....
What we often get here in the USA at Burns' Dinners is neither of the above. Instead we get people who cannot read or pronounce or understand Burns' poetry struggle along in a halting reading which conveys none of the sound that Burns intended. The audience gets neither sound nor meaning.

We are lucky here at our rather small Burns night gathering to have a Scottish (born and raised) gentleman who is versed in Burns read and recite Burns poems to us with the proper accent and after explain in modern English what was meant by certain words and phrases. This seems to be the best of both worlds as it lets us hear the words spoken in their originally intended manner, but still helps us understand their meaning.

[macwilkin]

The trouble with Burns' poetry is that it's written in a dialect of English that few speak, can read, or understand.

It's to some degree a foreign language to most English speakers.

So with any foreign-language poetry, what to do?

-Having a person familiar with the language read the poetry aloud in its original form conveys the intended sound to the listeners. But little of the meaning of the poetry is conveyed.

-Translate the poetry into English (or in Burns' case, Standard English) and you get the meaning but the entire sound-sense is lost.

What we often get here in the USA at Burns' Dinners is neither of the above. Instead we get people who cannot read or pronounce or understand Burns' poetry struggle along in a halting reading which conveys none of the sound that Burns intended. The audience gets neither sound nor meaning.

When poetry is stripped of both sound and meaning, what purpose is being served?

It would be like honouring Van Gogh in a room hung with horridly crudely distorted copies of his paintings done by untalented hacks. How thus is Van Gogh honoured?

I would say, in the absence of someone who actually speaks the Lowland Scots dialect to do the Burns' readings, simply raise a glass in his honour and sing Burns' songs etc.

I agree in principle, but given the availability of noted Scots Burnsians such as John Cairney, Christopher Tait, etc. reciting the poetry of RB on CDs, DVDs, etc., it is not too hard at all for a non-Scot to learn the correct pronunciation of the words. And as Standard mention, having expats from Scotland helps as well.

T.

[highlander_Daz]

my own pet peeve (along with the (Zyne) is when people cross arms whilst singing it, a few years ago HM the queen was criticised for not crossing her arms by ignorant journalists.

[Heming]

The trouble with Burns' poetry is that it's written in a dialect of English that few speak, can read, or understand.

"A language is a dialect with a country..."


The trouble with Burns' poetry is that it's not written in English, but in Scots, a language akin and similar to English but with it's own grammar and vocabulary. And that was before there was a standard spelling for Scots, too. Not easy to read for anyone not very used to it!

Scots almost died, or drowned in English, or whatever, but now an estimated 1.5 million people speak/understand it, and many work hard to conserve it as a separate language (the same thing went on in Norway early last century as Norwegian was being washed out by Danish).

This is not a political statement, and please do notice that I have made no remarks about empirealism or oppression. Also, if a mod finds my words distasteful, I hope they're moved to the penalty box asap-zulu.

Heming (language geek).

[Phil]

The trouble with Burns' poetry is that it's written in a dialect of English that few speak, can read, or understand.

I would just like to correct a misconception in that Scots is not a "dialect of English" but it is, in fact, closer to the truth to describe English as a "dialect of Scots". Both languages have a common root in the Anglo-Saxon language which was the prevalent language in southern and south-eastern Scotland when the people of Northumbria or Bernicia as it was then known settled in those parts, bringing their language with them. Subsequent invasion by the Normans as well as other Scandinavian "Viking" settlers resulted in both languages evolving separately but Scots remained the language of the court until the union of the crowns and is still prevalent in the language of the Scottish legal system. So, please, do not dismiss our language as merely some aberration of English. Despite the best attempts of the Establishment to stamp it out it has managed to survive the last 400 years or so in many people's everyday speech and I hope it will do so for many more years to come.

[highlander_Daz]

Id half disagree with you there Phil, Burns wrote in Lallans which is lowland Scots dialect, how Burn wrote doesnt represent how "scots" speak, I dont know who decided that a borders dialect could suddenly be the "scots language" when the majority of people living north of Stirling speak nothing like that, Im all for preserving the specific way that Burns wrote , but in my view , and its only my opinion which, in the grand scheme of things doesnt really count for much outside my front door . its delusional to suggest a regional dialect that represents only a percentage of how people speak could be presented as the "Scots language" One could suggest that Gàidhlig is the Scots language on that basis, which of course it isnt, as not that many people speak it. just sauce for the goose .

happy new year by the way

[Bigkahuna]

It's not so odd, as there are 3 ways to become a Cajun -- by the blood, the ring & the back door. My wife's family's surname, for example, was believed to originally Scottish -- Melanc(s)on -- which is claimed as a sept of the Macmillans. (other evidence points to a Yorkshire origin).

There are two types of boudin, btw -- boudin blanc and boudin rouge, the former being very similar to Haggis. And in a further twist, the French Foreign Legion's march is "Le Boudin":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyoLv_HVFJE



Belgians were forbidden at one time from joining La Legion.

T.

First, let me thank you for posting that beautiful version of "old lang syne". I had never heard that one before and find it far superior to the one sung on New Years Eve. As for " Le Boudin", if I recall correctly, it refers to the blanket roll worn over the shoulder by the Legionaires. It was called le boudin due to its resemblance to the sausage.