Balanced treatment of Ulster history

[macwilkin]

Leyburn's belief basically was that the Scots Irish disappeared into the melting pot after the Revolution. Webb's book is an attempt to show how and why that did not happen. Really, I myself tend to think that in some areas, esp. in the ever-moving American frontier of the 19th century, the melting pot disappeared into the Scots Irish....

Leyburn's narrative is the standard model for Ulster-Scots history. His arguement that the Scots-Irish culture transformed into an "American" culture, with elements of Scottish culture & customs just below the surface in everything from folklore to music.

The Ulster-Scots did absorb others, though -- English, Welsh, German Palantines, French Huegenots (The Crocketts & Seviers for example). The late WC Jamieson discusses this in his book "Ozark Country".

I'll have to look at Webb again, but Leyburn is certainly my first choice from an academic POV.

T.

[Mike_Oettle]

This has been a most interesting discussion, on occasion heated.
Not being American I have not followed these matters as closely as many of you folk have. But I concur for the most with Todd and Terry’s remarks.
With regard to the War of Independence, it does bear recalling that fully a third of the colonists in the 13 colonies remained loyal for one reason or another, and that a great many of them (you could perhaps tell me what proportion) emigrated afterwards, to the Bahamas, Canada or back to Britain.
One of them was Flora Macdonald, of Bonnie Prince Charlie fame.
Following the ’45 she was obliged to take an oath of loyalty to King George, as was the man she married, also a Macdonald.
On the strength of this oath they were permitted to emigrate to one of the southern colonies (I cannot for the moment recall whether it was Georgia or South Carolina).
And it was because of this oath that they found themselves unable to support the King’s enemies. For this they were very badly treated by those who supported independence.
After the war they found their position so intolerable that they were forced to return to Scotland at their own expense. As a result of the debt so incurred they died in penury.
The references to “victimology” strike a chord in South Africa, too, since both Afrikaners and black South Africans are fond of playing this tune, too.
Afrikaners will remind you of their sufferings in the concentration camps (for wives and children) and prisoner of war camps (far away from Africa) during the Boer War, and the unlawful annexation of their republics as British colonies.
And black South Africans talk of “300 years of oppression” when it has not all been repression, and for black people it is considerably less than 300 years.
They also harp on the slave trade, ignoring the fact that African rulers readily sold their own people, or made war on their neighbours in order to sell them, and so were at least as culpable as those who carried the slaves away.
This despite the fact that no South African people are known to have been enslaved at any stage.
Ranting against Britain for the slave trade is also a stock attitude, when it was Britain that ended the slave trade first, emancipated all its slaves in the colonies and sent its navy to capture slave vessels of all nations.
And following the American Civil War, the US joined Britain in suppressing the last slaving route, from West Africa to Cuba.
And to bring this back to Celtic culture, two final points:
1. While I am not of Irish descent, my wife’s great-grandfather was from Antrim.
2. The oldest Anglican parish in Port Elizabeth was founded by a priest of the Church of Ireland.
The Irish who took part in the settlement scheme of 1820 were initially separated from the English, Welsh and Scots in the Eastern Cape because it was feared that they would stir trouble. Instead they went to Clanwilliam, far away in the Western Cape.
Only in 1825 were they permitted to join their fellow settlers in the Eastern Cape. A few remained in Clanwilliam, however.
Regards,
Mike

[Good Egg]

You could check out this lot: http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/

Funnily enough Nelson McCausland a local politico and devolved Minister for Culture had a whine at museums and asked them to give more prominence to Ulster-Scots, the Orange Order and alternative views on the origin of the universe in their displays. When I saw the title of this thread I thought that's what you were referring to.

The study of history is fascinating and anyone who is not aware of it is doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past but history is also highly subjective. Irish 'victimhood' is a wonder to behold. Trouble is they are not the exceptional victims they like to think they are. The potato famine was terrible but so were the Highland clearances. Life expectancy and poverty in Glasgow was far worse than Ireland. Conditions in Manchester were appalling. The famines in the Fenlands caused mass migrations. The difference was that all these people got on and made a life for themselves instead of revelling in their victim status.

A parallel in American history would be slavery. I hear a lot of African-Americans blame slavery and the white man for their failure to thrive. I never hear any of them give thanks to the 389,753 men of the Federal Army who were killed or the 275,175 who were wounded or for the huge amount of treasure that was expended freeing the slaves. (Yes I know there were other cause of the war).

Anyway I don't think you'll get a balanced view, you'll just have to read lots of different stuff and make up your own mind.

[denmcdough]

In reference to the last post, by Courtmount:

Oh really!????? You're touching on a delegate issue, and may not be REALLY pertinent to the OP. Treading on a thin line, here, with the political view point!

RULE #5...????????!!!!

[McElmurry]

In reference to the last post, by Courtmount:

You're touching on a delegate issue, and may not be REALLY pertinent to the OP.

I appreciate your efforts to keep this post open. I have no way of telling how thin the ice is. I just want to learn about the lands of my ancestors and several branches go through (or to) the northern portion of the island of Ireland. I hope to travel there one day as well as to Scotland and England and Wales from whence most of my ancestors emigrated.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I have noticed that there is sometimes a tendency for some people of Irish decent in North America to read into postings made by those of us who actually live (or until quite recently, lived) in Ireland things which are neither written nor implied.

As a Wicklow man (that's in the Republic for those who may not be familiar with Irish geography), I certainly didn't pick up on any "political view" in Courtmount's postings. His comments concerning the almost institutional view of "victimhood" by many of the Irish-- especially amongst some segments of the diaspora-- are, sadly, quite correct; this "victimology" neither accurately reflects the whole of our history nor the place of our country in 21st century Europe. This "theology of blame" has done nothing to improve Ireland, and much to hold it back-- often at a most dreadful price paid in innocent human lives on both sides of the border and both sides of St. George's Channel.

Ulster, as it exists both historically and as a 20th century geo-political entity, has a rich and varied history and culture, and is home to nearly a million Irish men and women who are justifiably proud of their heritage, be it Scots, Welsh, German, Norse, English, Chinese, or just plain old garden variety Irish.

The discussion of the history of the people of Ulster, although it will inevitably be laced with politics the same as any other history -- need not, nor should it be, construed as a political discussion -- because the history of Ireland, of which Ulster is a part, is far richer than the pettiness of partisan politics.

[McElmurry]

Anyway I don't think you'll get a balanced view, you'll just have to read lots of different stuff and make up your own mind.

I suspected as much but I thought some learned recommendations might get me closer to center.

Speaking of neutrality I notice you list your location as Nor'n Iron. I read yesterday that this is the most neutral way to refer to the region of Northern Ireland. Would it be too weird for a Yankee to use the term Nor'n Iron? In an historic context when referencing the northern most of the four regions of the island of Ireland is Uladh preferable to Ulster?

[Good Egg]

Nor'n Iron is an attempt (childish perhaps) to render into writing the way many of my neighbours pronounce Northern Ireland. NI is the de facto geo-political entity. Ulster includes counties that are part of the Republic although it tends to be used as shorthand for the 'Province' which is another way of referring to the place.

Don't get me wrong its a great place and on the whole lovely people - I have many friends on all sides of the divide. Although my own view on that is 'a curse a both (all) your houses'.

I spent 9 years living in Hong Kong where we refereed to the place as 'the colony' I have once or twice had a senior moment and used 'colony' instead of 'province'. Doh! Especially amongst some of the world touchiest people.

[Jock Scot]

I can't fault anyone wanting to get a balanced view of any country and the only way is to read, ask questions, study, read more, ask more and in Ulster's case you will need to do that again and again, because its history is complicated by many factors------perhaps many more should enquire into its real history and then make their own mind up and move on.

[denmcdough]

Oh, I agree that learning about the balanced history of Ulster is a wonderful idea, but MOR, you make a poor assumption, too. Are you Irish or Scottish, or what? You play both sides it seems. In reference to Courtmount was that it seems like he was making this a spitting contest. What happened in Scotland, Ireland, or anywhere in the world, when it comes to subjugation, is despicable! No one had it worse than the other...it is all horrifying!

Learning about history is wonderful, but the comment about slavery was a bit much in my opinion, as was the comment about one side having it worse than the other. Again, it's all horrible. Unfortunately, though, it's part of our history.