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16th December 10, 06:53 AM
#11
Greetings,
I have attached a link to an post I made about surnames, surnames weren't fixed in the Highlands and Sanderson is "Scots/English" for MacAlasdair (Son of Alexander) also Sandy - Zandy (Al-ex-zander) there is a MacAlister clan, of which I think through Gaelic would probably make more sense, than Sanderson of MacDonald, sept is the Irish word for clan, so septs are clans within a clan...e.g. allied/associated families living on clan lands and were tenants (kith means - family not of the blood and kin means - family of the blood, point being they are regarded as family via blood or no), and there were even MacIntyres living in other clans aswell, surnames are not fixed in stone, spelling and pronoucation wasn't that important before written records came about, people were more interested in surviving, than the spelling of there surnames.
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...tml#post928745
Another note: claiming your clan...in todays world unless you join a clan or association and are reconized by them, you cannot claim to BELONG to a clan as in stating clanship either clansman or clanwoman, you can claim clan descent through your family tree. Often clans are described as relics of the past, but people still take pride in their roots which is good, but claiming clanship is misleading, in the same manner as claiming coats-of-arms or bearings that you are not entitled to.
Here is a link of which discusses surnames on coats-of-arms and bearings:
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...01/#post929212
All the best,
Graham
Last edited by Graham A. Robieson; 18th December 10 at 02:35 PM.
Reason: Adding more info
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16th December 10, 09:33 AM
#12
 Originally Posted by Graham A. Robieson
Another note: claiming your clan...in todays world unless you join a clan or association and are reconized by them, you cannot claim to BELONG to a clan as in stating clanship either clansman or clanwoman, you can claim clan descent through your family tree. Often clans are described as relics of the past, but people still take pride in their roots which is good, but claiming clanship is misleading, in the same manner as claiming coats-of-arms or bearings that you are not entitled to.
Interesting thoughts....I had never given that much thought, just considered it a given. It's a good thing then that not only do I belong to a clan association (Clan Donald), but I've also been recognized by Mac Mhic Raonuill (the chief of Keppoch) as "one of his"!
[SIZE="2"][FONT="Georgia"][COLOR="DarkGreen"][B][I]T. E. ("TERRY") HOLMES[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE="1"][FONT="Georgia"][COLOR="DarkGreen"][B][I]proud descendant of the McReynolds/MacRanalds of Ulster & Keppoch, Somerled & Robert the Bruce.[/SIZE]
[SIZE="1"]"Ah, here comes the Bold Highlander. No @rse in his breeks but too proud to tug his forelock..." Rob Roy (1995)[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
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17th December 10, 08:05 AM
#13
I would like to echo the sentiment that family history research is the best way to find clan affiliations. There are a number of family names that are included in the lists of associated families of multiple clans (my surname included). Even if it isn't listed as a sept, there is a chance that your ancestors may have been members of or lived in the same area as a completely different clan than any of the sept lists would suggest.
I'd also like to thank Matt for his incredibly informative post! Thank you!
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17th December 10, 02:07 PM
#14
clarity and brevity
Thanks to Matt and Graham for clear, direct statements on these issues.
This has been a difficult area for many, as having "the family coat of arms"
on the wall is a source of validation to many who don't get much of it.
I've attempted to point out that having the same name doesn't guarantee
a blood connection either, but maybe descent from the guy that mucked
the stalls in the "great man's" stables who knew where his bread was buttered and attempted to curry favor by adopting the name.
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17th December 10, 07:31 PM
#15
Just to muddy the waters a bit, I have more affilitaions for the name Paul.
The surname Paul is said to originate from what is now northern Denmark or southern Norway. In that time and place, some families who had encountered English missionaries took the names of popular saints as surnames. The Paul family in my genealogy were connected with Clan Matheson, and later affiliated with the House of Gordon, and probably found their way to Scotland in the early years of the 11th Century.
While the Stephen family, my direct predecessors, seemed to leave their mark all over the northeast, they were never considered a clan and do not appear on any list of septs that I am aware of.
Just goes to show that any notion of a coherent system of clans, houses, septs, kith, and kin falls well short of describing the complex interweaving of families over the centuries.
EPITAPH: Decades from now, no one will know what my bank balance looked like, it won't matter to anyone what kind of car I drove, nor will anyone care what sort of house I lived in. But the world will be a different place, because I did something so mind bafflingly eccentric that my ruins have become a tourist attraction.
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19th December 10, 07:12 AM
#16
I think Jock got it right, at the start of this thread.......a way of selling more tartan.
Sept I gather is an irish word, meaning 'clan' or family.
It was just 'borrowed' to add names to the clans, thereby opening the market for more cloth.
Yes, there are at times bona-fide connections with clan and other names, and many carry Clan blood, but this has nothing to do with the term 'Sept".
Does "Sept" sell more tartan?
You can bet your woolie socks it does!
I've stood in Moffat weavers shop, and watched people deperately, even forlornly, scanning the "sept' lists, hoping against hope to find Some connection, to Some tartan .....To Any tartan! If the Septs were enlarged to cover more names, I don't think many would argue. :-)
Last edited by Micric; 19th December 10 at 07:21 AM.
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19th December 10, 10:02 AM
#17
 Originally Posted by M. A. C. Newsome
A couple of points.
The word "sept" itself means "family." So to say "a sept of MacDonell of Glengarry," is the same as saying "a family of the MacDonell of Glengarry clan."
There is a common misconception, at least over here in the states, that the term "sept" is somehow derogatory and refers to a small, helpless group who were forced to be servants to a larger, more dominant clan. "Oh, my family was too small and weak to have their own tartan. We were absorbed by the MacDonalds and have to wear their tartan," is a common sentiment. But that's not at all what the term "sept" means.
I've taken to using the term "associated family" as it means essentially the same thing but doesn't have the same connotations with many people.
The other point to remember is that when one sees a name listed as a sept of a clan, it does not mean that all of that name are part of the clan. It only means that some of that name have, historically, been associated with that clan (assuming that whoever put the list together has done accurate research).
So, one will find Taylor listed as a sept of the Camerons, and Miller as a sept of MacFarlane, but that in no way means that all Taylors are Camerons (or even Scottish!), or all Millers MacFarlane. This is why one will often find the same name listed among multiple clans. It's not a contradiction. It simply refers to different families (or branches of families), living in different locations.
My mother's maiden name, and my middle name, is Allen. You'll find that name listed as a sept of clans MacDonald of Clanranald, MacKay, Grant, and MacFarlane. My mother's Allens, however, are English in origin. I know this because I have done the genealogical background on that part of the family. And that's really the only way to know for sure.
All the "clan sept lists" can tell me is that there are some Allens who are part of those four clans listed above. That list knows nothing about my family. It cannot tell me what clan, if any, I "belong to." It can only provide me with a good place to start, or point me in a direction for further research.
Now, in the case of Sanderson, the Gaelic equivalent would indeed be MacAlasdair (son of Alexander). Alasdair/Alistair/Alisdair, etc. is a rather common Gaelic forename. Consequently, the patronymic surname is not that unusual. All the surname means, on its face, is that you are descended from someone named Alexander. It does not necessarily mean that you are part of the MacAlister clan.
Now, the reality is that most of us simply do not have access to the kind of extensive genealogical record that would tell us, without a doubt, what "clan" our ancestors belonged to. So we look at our surname and we make assumptions. If your surname means "son of Alexander" and there is a clan called "son of Alexander" the common thing is to adopt that as your clan. Certainly no one would raise any eyebrows about a Sanderson joining the MacAlister clan, or a Donaldson joining Can Donald, or a Gregor in a MacGregor kilt. No one would expect that you'd have your pedigree documented back 500 years.
Another point is that oftentimes the same family may have been associated with more than one clan at different points in history, and clans can have associations with each other. For example, the small MacQuarrie clan on Ulva were followers of the MacDonalds in their heyday, but after the breakup of the Lordship of the Isles became followers of the MacLeans.
In the case of MacAlister and MacDonald of Glengarry, you'll find the names intimately associated. I'll quote from the Clan Donald web site.
You can read further at http://www.macdonald.com/glengry.html
So when you find the name Sanderson listed as a sept of both clan MacDonell of Glengarry and MacAlister, it is not really a contradiction, but simply a reflection of the history of these two names.
I can fully grasp this. An extended family through the making of relations. And I can also appreciate the mother's maiden name being Allen and your middle name being the same. My mother's maiden name was Gipson, which is as well, my middle name.
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9th January 11, 01:36 PM
#18
 Originally Posted by M. A. C. Newsome
A couple of points.
The word "sept" itself means "family." So to say "a sept of MacDonell of Glengarry," is the same as saying "a family of the MacDonell of Glengarry clan."
There is a common misconception, at least over here in the states, that the term "sept" is somehow derogatory and refers to a small, helpless group who were forced to be servants to a larger, more dominant clan. "Oh, my family was too small and weak to have their own tartan. We were absorbed by the MacDonalds and have to wear their tartan," is a common sentiment. But that's not at all what the term "sept" means.
I've taken to using the term "associated family" as it means essentially the same thing but doesn't have the same connotations with many people.
The other point to remember is that when one sees a name listed as a sept of a clan, it does not mean that all of that name are part of the clan. It only means that some of that name have, historically, been associated with that clan (assuming that whoever put the list together has done accurate research).
So, one will find Taylor listed as a sept of the Camerons, and Miller as a sept of MacFarlane, but that in no way means that all Taylors are Camerons (or even Scottish!), or all Millers MacFarlane. This is why one will often find the same name listed among multiple clans. It's not a contradiction. It simply refers to different families (or branches of families), living in different locations.
My mother's maiden name, and my middle name, is Allen. You'll find that name listed as a sept of clans MacDonald of Clanranald, MacKay, Grant, and MacFarlane. My mother's Allens, however, are English in origin. I know this because I have done the genealogical background on that part of the family. And that's really the only way to know for sure.
All the "clan sept lists" can tell me is that there are some Allens who are part of those four clans listed above. That list knows nothing about my family. It cannot tell me what clan, if any, I "belong to." It can only provide me with a good place to start, or point me in a direction for further research.
Now, in the case of Sanderson, the Gaelic equivalent would indeed be MacAlasdair (son of Alexander). Alasdair/Alistair/Alisdair, etc. is a rather common Gaelic forename. Consequently, the patronymic surname is not that unusual. All the surname means, on its face, is that you are descended from someone named Alexander. It does not necessarily mean that you are part of the MacAlister clan.
Now, the reality is that most of us simply do not have access to the kind of extensive genealogical record that would tell us, without a doubt, what "clan" our ancestors belonged to. So we look at our surname and we make assumptions. If your surname means "son of Alexander" and there is a clan called "son of Alexander" the common thing is to adopt that as your clan. Certainly no one would raise any eyebrows about a Sanderson joining the MacAlister clan, or a Donaldson joining Can Donald, or a Gregor in a MacGregor kilt. No one would expect that you'd have your pedigree documented back 500 years.
Another point is that oftentimes the same family may have been associated with more than one clan at different points in history, and clans can have associations with each other. For example, the small MacQuarrie clan on Ulva were followers of the MacDonalds in their heyday, but after the breakup of the Lordship of the Isles became followers of the MacLeans.
In the case of MacAlister and MacDonald of Glengarry, you'll find the names intimately associated. I'll quote from the Clan Donald web site.
You can read further at http://www.macdonald.com/glengry.html
So when you find the name Sanderson listed as a sept of both clan MacDonell of Glengarry and MacAlister, it is not really a contradiction, but simply a reflection of the history of these two names.
Well said Matt, thank you! I agree with you as well in regards to the whole "sept" discussion.
Cheers mate,
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10th January 11, 10:54 AM
#19
 Originally Posted by M. A. C. Newsome
All the surname means, on its face, is that you are descended from someone named Alexander.
That's pretty much the conclusion I have come to. I have gone back as far as David Sanderson born 1796, Dyhefoot, Dunsyre, Lanarkshire, Scotland.
The farthest back on any branch of my tree I have gone is 1620, an ancestor of my maternal Granny, William Cheyne of Peterhead, Aberdeenshire. On my Grandfather's side, the Gill's, I have gone as far back as William Gill, born 22nd April 1745 Gamrie, Banffshire. I've been doing my family tree since the 1980's and it's been good fun.
However, I don't really feel the need to join any clan society. I quite simply was looking at the idea of getting a tartan that I have a family connection with for a new kilt, hence my enquiry about the actual origins of septs, as we understand them today. Thanks to all for your input.
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4th February 11, 10:33 PM
#20
I agree with Jock and Cygnus. Most lists of septs are bogus are little more than an effort to sell more tartan. Some in my family have come to grief relying on them, spending quite a bit of money on attire and junk associated with a clan we have no relationship with.
The ONLY way to determine which, if any, clan you had ancestors in is genealogical research, or which there are two reliable ways.
First is the paper trail, carefully constructing one's pedigree beginning with oneself and working backward one generation at a time, carefully documenting each set before proceding further, that is, not taking any leaps of faith.
The other that might, and only might, help is genealogical genetic testing of your Y DNA, which is transmitted from father to son, as are surnames. It's quick, taking 6 weeks or so, and relatively inexpensive, $99 to $300 or so. The company with the largest database and therefore the most likely to be useful in finding matches for you is Family Tree DNA, at www.familytreedna.com. Of course this shows only blood relationships. There were others, such as adoption, illegitimacy, etc, that were no bar to being a "member" of a clan, whatever that means.
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