Wearing a basket hilt.?.

[GG]

Each to his own. Wearing a weapon as a civilian is against my European way of thinking. I don't even wear a knife, and if a sgian dubh, which is very seldom, it is made of plastic.

[Dale Seago]

Each to his own. Wearing a weapon as a civilian is against my European way of thinking. I don't even wear a knife, and if a sgian dubh, which is very seldom, it is made of plastic.

No problem at all from where I sit. Your comment however obliges me to point out that the civilian/military distinction tends to blur when the society you're modeling things on was essentially a warrior aristocracy, as was the case with the Gael.

[GG]

Your comment however obliges me to point out that the civilian/military distinction tends to blur when the society you're modeling things on was essentially a warrior aristocracy, as was the case with the Gael.

I do see your point.

But if I should wear a weapon - or just a knife with a blade extending 7 cm (2 3/4 inch) - it should qualify me to a stay in prison.

[Dale Seago]

I do see your point.

But if I should wear a weapon - or just a knife with a blade extending 7 cm (2 3/4 inch) - it should qualify me to a stay in prison.

And I totally see yours.

Wearing a "functional" sgian dubh (that is, one with a real cutting edge as well as a sharp point) in Japan with my kilt could bring exactly the same result.

Although I have done that in Japan, more than once, (and as recently as this past December) and gotten away with it because I was among, shall we say, a weapons-friendly group of people.

[Jock Scot]

I seem to recall that doors and swords were a disastrous mix and I was only too glad to fore-go the dubious pleasure of carting the damn things about.

Unless theatricals are your thing I cannot see any valid reason for wearing a sword with civilian highland attire. It is a very rare event to even wear a dirk so what the justification for a sword is, escapes me completely.

I quite understand people wanting to carry them for re-enactment purposes as costume, I quite understand people wanting to own them, I quite understand that people are interested in Scottish swords for all sorts of reasons,there are however, absolutely no valid reasons for carrying a sword with civilian highland attire other than out and out brigadoonary and in my not so humble opinion,it does no credit to my national attire whatsoever and in fact, it only adds to the dreaded "costume label" that should be avoided at all costs.

[robbiethepiper]

Totally agree with Jock Scott. A Sgian dubh is justifiable on the grounds of utility and tradition, dirks and swords are made and designed for one purpose only - killing people. Unless involved with acting, re-enactment etc they should remain hung on the wall at home, to admire or use on burglars

[Andy Proffitt]

Totally agree with Jock Scott. A Sgian dubh is justifiable on the grounds of utility and tradition, dirks and swords are made and designed for one purpose only - killing people. Unless involved with acting, re-enactment etc they should remain hung on the wall at home, to admire or use on burglars

I'm not trying to start trouble or discord but you say that "dirks and swords are made and designed for one purpose, killing people."

Exactly what would the "tradition" of a small knife tucked away in a sock be, but to jam it in someone if the need arose? I know some talk about it's use as a skinning/utilitarian knife, but then why carry it to gatherings, dinners, etc, where there was very little skinning of animals? I think it splits hairs a little much to claim their purposes were dissimilar.

That being said, the sword, fun as it may be, is a little too much for general Highland wear, and the dirk is rarely a fit either.

Remember, the farther removed from our barbarian forebears we get, the shorter our daily blades become.

[davidlpope]

Exactly what would the "tradition" of a small knife tucked away in a sock be, but to jam it in someone if the need arose?

Well, I've never "jammed" someone with my sgian dubh, but I have used mine to cut "zip-ties", string, loosen knots in rope, cut apples, cheese, etc.- basically anything one would use a knife for in everyday situations.

I know some talk about it's use as a skinning/utilitarian knife, but then why carry it to gatherings, dinners, etc, where there was very little skinning of animals?

It's become an accepted part of Traditional Highland Civilian Dress and is an additional item of decoration.

Modern Basket-Hilted Broadswords, though, have a specific meaning- they are part of a uniform and identify those who have achieved a particular rank in a Scottish/Highland Regiment or hold a comparable rank in a pseudo-military context (i.e. Drum Major in a Pipe Band while wearing his band uniform).

[Andy Proffitt]

Well, I've never "jammed" someone with my sgian dubh, but I have used mine to cut "zip-ties", string, loosen knots in rope, cut apples, cheese, etc.- basically anything one would use a knife for in everyday situations.





It's become an accepted part of Traditional Highland Civilian Dress and is an additional item of decoration.

Modern Basket-Hilted Broadswords, though, have a specific meaning- they are part of a uniform and identify those who have achieved a particular rank in a Scottish/Highland Regiment or hold a comparable rank in a pseudo-military context (i.e. Drum Major in a Pipe Band while wearing his band uniform).

I am aware and not questioning its use in Highland dress, and for that matter I've not jammed anyone with mine...save maybe a sandwich.

What I was questioning was the line of logic (as I read it) that stated the dirk and sword were designed for killing people/defense of ones person, but that the sgian was somehow other. I highly doubt that the sgian came about when someone looked at his hose and decided they needed an extra bit of decoration.

The sgian is a utilitarian design, and I use it as such. But if what is being stated is that one of those utilities was not defense, I'm not sure I can buy that.

Yes, by the 1800's Scotland was pacified, at least there was no organized armed movement, and in America at the same time, the Revolutionary War was over, but does the end of armed national conflict mean that violence ceased in both areas? Did criminals cease their activities in Scotland, did rape robbery and murder disappear? Would someone faced with such not use the sgian they had in their stocking top in the same way as a dirk or sword? That is one of the inherent utilities of any blade, defense.

Sorry to offend, but it piqued the odd logic/quandary/human nature portion of my brain. I probably thought too much about it.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I'm not trying to start trouble or discord but you say that "dirks and swords are made and designed for one purpose, killing people."

Exactly what would the "tradition" of a small knife tucked away in a sock be, but to jam it in someone if the need arose? I know some talk about it's use as a skinning/utilitarian knife, but then why carry it to gatherings, dinners, etc, where there was very little skinning of animals? I think it splits hairs a little much to claim their purposes were dissimilar.

The flaw in this line of argument is that by 1782 (the year the proscription on Highland attire was repealed), Scotland was "pacified", and had been for about half a century. It is not until about 1800 that the sgian dubh first makes it presence known, and the first datable reference is probably Raeburn's portrait of "The Macnab", painted c.1806, a time when the only "clan feuds" to be found were between the covers of novels penned by Sir Walter Scott.

The bald truth of it-- no hair splitting here-- is that the sgian dubh dates from around 1800, and was a small utility knife, conveniently carried in the top of the stocking by those whose mode of dress lacked pockets. As Highland attire became more elaborate, so, too, did the sgian dubh, but without loosing it's intended utilitarian purpose.