More on Septs

[MacSpadger]

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, sept comes into the English language from French and before that, from Latin. The first documented use was in 1517. Sept refers to a division of a nation, tribe, or clan, and was originally used in reference to Ireland.

Yes, I have the OED and it says "Occas. used by anthropologists (after Sir H. Maine, Early Hist. Institutions, 1875) for a clan consisting of those who are, or at least are believed to be, descendants of a common ancestor", so the 1875 date fits in exactly with my earlier posts about the concept coming into use during this time.

I suppose the question here is what would you call a real connection? If there is a tartan specific to one's surname, that's easy enough. For a sept connection, one could do an extensive genealogy to see whether or not their family name actually came from, or had any association with, the clan that a tartan represents.

I've done all that, but may be in the minority here.

Or you could skip all that and just join the clan association/society, ask for permission from the chief, etc.

In truth, I strongly suspect this may be nearer to how it was done than any family ties.

As I understand it though, the history of Scottish tartans being recorded, mass produced, and associated with specific clans goes back only as far as the 19th century.

Wilson's of Bannockburn began in the 1700's, and their tartan pattern book was published in 1819.

On a basic level, just going with what the tartan industry says is your clan/sept sett is actually quite "traditional."

If you want an unassailable link, you can design and register your own, or wear a district tartan

I am fine with who I am, as I said earlier, just wear fit ye' bluddy well like, but dinnae' invent nae' spiel. It's just that the more I look for evidence of "septs", the less I find. Clans were quite simply communities, only the elite within them had blood ties, and like all communities they changed with the passage of time. People came and went, dynasties crumbled, time brought cheviots, stags, black, black oil and the people dispersed. "Septs" just appears to be an early form of branding, IMHO.

[creagdhubh]

I am fine with who I am, as I said earlier, just wear fit ye' bluddy well like, but dinnae' invent nae' spiel. It's just that the more I look for evidence of "septs", the less I find. Clans were quite simply communities, only the elite within them had blood ties, and like all communities they changed with the passage of time. People came and went, dynasties crumbled, time brought cheviots, stags, black, black oil and the people dispersed. "Septs" just appears to be an early form of branding, IMHO.

Well said and I agree!

[CMcG]

Yes, I have the OED and it says "Occas. used by anthropologists (after Sir H. Maine, Early Hist. Institutions, 1875) for a clan consisting of those who are, or at least are believed to be, descendants of a common ancestor", so the 1875 date fits in exactly with my earlier posts about the concept coming into use during this time.

I'm looking at the online version and right after the quote you've included, it goes on to list 10 quotes with dates between 1517 and 1868. It would appear to have had some currency before Sir H. Maine, though perhaps it really gained steam after him?

Wilson's of Bannockburn began in the 1700's, and their tartan pattern book was published in 1819.

I've read that Wilson's of Bannockburn began in the 1760's, which was still during Proscription. But it is quite fascinating to see how entrenched the idea of clan tartans has become, despite the fact that tartan lists attached to names didn't come until the 1800s.

...
I am fine with who I am, as I said earlier, just wear fit ye' bluddy well like, but dinnae' invent nae' spiel. It's just that the more I look for evidence of "septs", the less I find. Clans were quite simply communities, only the elite within them had blood ties, and like all communities they changed with the passage of time. People came and went, dynasties crumbled, time brought cheviots, stags, black, black oil and the people dispersed. "Septs" just appears to be an early form of branding, IMHO.

Sounds good to me And while we're wearing what we bloody well like, I'll take a "sept" tartan over a megacorporation's brand, any day of the week!

[figheadair]

Wilson's of Bannockburn began in the 1700's, and their tartan pattern book was published in 1819.

Wilsons began in the 1760s as was mentioned in a later text. The 1819 KPB was never published, it was an in-house production aide. The revised edition of my book on the 1819 KPB has just gone off to the printer .

[MacSpadger]

Wilsons began in the 1860s as was mentioned in a later text. The 1819 KPB was never published, it was an in-house production aide. The revised edition of my book on the 1819 KPB has just gone off to the printer .

Interesting. The Scottish tartans authority seem to imply a much earlier start.

[Peter Crowe]

I quite agree with MacSpadger on this topic. Like him, I know who I am, where I come from (warts and all), and without any smugness or arrogance have 'a guid conceit o' masel'!

[creagdhubh]

I quite agree with MacSpadger on this topic. Like him, I know who I am, where I come from (warts and all), and without any smugness or arrogance have 'a guid conceit o' masel'!

Hahaha! Well said, Peter!

Cheers,

[O'Callaghan]

Yes, I have the OED and it says "Occas. used by anthropologists (after Sir H. Maine, Early Hist. Institutions, 1875) for a clan consisting of those who are, or at least are believed to be, descendants of a common ancestor", so the 1875 date fits in exactly with my earlier posts about the concept coming into use during this time.



I've done all that, but may be in the minority here.

In truth, I strongly suspect this may be nearer to how it was done than any family ties.


Wilson's of Bannockburn began in the 1700's, and their tartan pattern book was published in 1819.


I am fine with who I am, as I said earlier, just wear fit ye' bluddy well like, but dinnae' invent nae' spiel. It's just that the more I look for evidence of "septs", the less I find. Clans were quite simply communities, only the elite within them had blood ties, and like all communities they changed with the passage of time. People came and went, dynasties crumbled, time brought cheviots, stags, black, black oil and the people dispersed. "Septs" just appears to be an early form of branding, IMHO.

Regarding Wilson's, it was the 1780s, and their tartans originally had numbers, not names, only later superceded, usually by the surnames of people who had ordered them!! Now, not every Scots clan tartan began that way, but a large number did. When King George called the clan chiefs to London in 1822, I think it was, he asked them to wear their clan tartans, and many of them are said to have looked in Wilson's catalogue to find out what their tartan was, LOL!

Some other clan tartans originated in a book faked by the Allen brothers from Surrey in England, masquerading under the surname Sobieski and claiming descent from Bonny Prince Charlie via the Polish Count Sobieski.

After you eliminate the 'Sobieski' brothers and Wilson's catalogue, there are estimated to about one to two dozen clan tartans having an older and more authentic origin, out of a total of about 200.

[xman]

I'm not sure that your assessment of the early historians being inventors of sept fiction is entirely fair. I know when i read about clans and septs for the first time I was struck by the many inconsistencies. nowhere have I read that "All Leeks are sept of Clan MacOnion" for example, only that they are. Leek would also be listed as sept of Can Cabbage as well which creates some confusion sometimes. Sure, it would have been easier to understand at first blush if I had read that "some Leeks are sept of Clan MacOnion", it would be more precise. After some reading, however, my natural assumption was that there was a lot of grey area and movement between clans. The clan structure is of course gone now and it's all historical context. Perhaps I'm missing something, but that's how I've interpreted the situation.

[Tobus]

I'm not sure that your assessment of the early historians being inventors of sept fiction is entirely fair. I know when i read about clans and septs for the first time I was struck by the many inconsistencies. nowhere have I read that "All Leeks are sept of Clan MacOnion" for example, only that they are. Leek would also be listed as sept of Can Cabbage as well which creates some confusion sometimes. Sure, it would have been easier to understand at first blush if I had read that "some Leeks are sept of Clan MacOnion", it would be more precise. After some reading, however, my natural assumption was that there was a lot of grey area and movement between clans. The clan structure is of course gone now and it's all historical context. Perhaps I'm missing something, but that's how I've interpreted the situation.

This is how I've always seen it as well. My own Kilpatricks are listed as a sept of Colquhoun as well as Douglas. Neither claims to be the sole clan that all Kilpatricks belong to. Rather, it is a simple matter of stating that there were people with the name Kilpatrick associated with both clans at some point. (Don't even get me started on the fact that the first Colquhoun was in fact a Kilpatrick!) And there may be other clans who had Kilpatricks under their protection, or as tenants on their lands. So it is indeed folly to think that an 'official' list of sept names is the be-all, end-all of clan associations. Sadly, though, for those of us who cannot prove our lineage back that far, it's all we've got.