"Dressing down a culture"

[Scout]

I wish people could appreciate how ethnocentric this whole hats off in doors or at the table thing is. I understand the longing for days gone by with formality and manners, but many people wear the hat at the table as a sign of politeness and respect.

We aren't in a Christian only society and things aren't always as they appear. Just because someone has headdress on in doors, doesn't necessarily mean they are a boor without manners.

They might be Jewish or muslim...

With religious customs as the exception, I have to agree wholeheartedly with thescot about men wearing hats indoors. I was taught as a boy to remove my hat indoors and had that reinforced during my Army career where soldiers absolutely did NOT wear headgear indoors (except when under arms). While first impressions may not always be accurate, when I see a man wearing a hat indoors (especially seated in a restaurant) I assume that they are uncouth and ill-mannered and downright rude.

[creagdhubh]

Thanks for sharing the article. Below is a photo of how I preferred to dress, beginning in Kindergarten. I am pretty much the same way today. My parents would refer to me as a "little Alex P. Keaton," for those of you familiar with the 1980's American sitcom, Family Ties. I insisted that I always wore a tie to school, even when it really wasn't necessary to do so. I'm not sure where this mentality of "sartorial awareness" derived from, but it has stuck with me well into adulthood. I suppose there are worst things for a person to possess.

[Father Bill]

I wish people could appreciate how ethnocentric this whole hats off in doors or at the table thing is. I understand the longing for days gone by with formality and manners, but many people wear the hat at the table as a sign of politeness and respect.

We aren't in a Christian only society and things aren't always as they appear. Just because someone has headdress on in doors, doesn't necessarily mean they are a boor without manners.

They might be Jewish or muslim...

I have no problem with faith-based head coverings. On the contrary, I respect and admire those, but I'm disgusted by dirty old baseball hats over rude or dirty T-shirts and three days of beard. When folks come into a lunch-diner in dirty coveralls from a job-site I have no problem with that either, but in a "nice" restaurant? Those other modes of dress do not belong in more polite dining areas. Ever.

For what it's worth, on that related topic, when my beard has been under transition (growing in) I've always dressed a wee bit better than normal and trimmed its edges as soon as I could - perhaps third day in.

[RockyR]

On a related note, I saw and shared a huge laugh with Kelly, the worst pair of "dress pants" ever... dress sweatpants:

http://www.betabrand.com/west-coast-..._campaign=dpsp



To the topic at hand... WHile I admit that I was a "tshirt and jeans" guy in the past, my clothing choices have changed (evolved?) a bit in the past few years. My typical summer outfit is a short sleeved linen shirt or polo with a kilt, crew socks and sneakers. My slightly dressier outfit is a tattersall shirt (rolled up cuffs / no tie) and tweed vest with kilt, hose and ghillie brogues. If I am in the mood to dress up a bit more, then I add the tie and jacket. And when going out, I live by the saying "It's always better to be overdressed than underdressed."

[Father Bill]

Rocky - I can respect jeans and T-shirts in a lot of situations. Clean T, no rude or gross images, jeans clean, no rips. No problem. Just not when other men are in shirt & tie unless you're the cleanup crew. Flip side: don't wear a tux when other men are in shirt and tie unless you're the waiter. It's a matter of being appropriate.

[creagdhubh]

Rocky - I can respect jeans and T-shirts in a lot of situations. Clean T, no rude or gross images, jeans clean, no rips. No problem. Just not when other men are in shirt & tie unless you're the cleanup crew. Flip side: don't wear a tux when other men are in shirt and tie unless you're the waiter. It's a matter of being appropriate.

Precisely! Contextual factors are key.

[Carlo]

I wonder if dress sense has something to do with school uniforms, and /or is it a "class" thing?
Since my dad never even owned a suit, suits were just for bankers..., at least back when I was younger.

Things that might come naturally to some are still in my "to learn" box.

[OC Richard]

Here's some footage shot in London in 1900 and you can see that in general people took more care in their dress

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQV1_B63LTM

Yes you see some workers in rough clothes, but in the main men are wearing suits, ties, and hats and the women are in fashionable dresses and hats.

I have lovely large portraits of my Great-Great-Grandparents which were taken in England c1880. Though they were poor Cornish miners they are dressed very well, much like in the video above.

It's one of the things I love about old movies like Harvey: the elegant dress of the people back then (and who better than Jimmy Stewart?)

Normally the only time I dress well at all, with coat, collared shirt, and tie is when I'm in Highland Dress. Oh and at work, where I have to wear a tie every day.

[Nathan]

I have no problem with faith-based head coverings. On the contrary, I respect and admire those, but I'm disgusted by dirty old baseball hats over rude or dirty T-shirts and three days of beard. When folks come into a lunch-diner in dirty coveralls from a job-site I have no problem with that either, but in a "nice" restaurant? Those other modes of dress do not belong in more polite dining areas. Ever.

For what it's worth, on that related topic, when my beard has been under transition (growing in) I've always dressed a wee bit better than normal and trimmed its edges as soon as I could - perhaps third day in.

The thing is, if we take Judaism as an example, the law doesn't require that you wear a particular type of hat, but rather that you cover your head. Moreover, custom demands that if you are going to wear an item like a kippah or yarmulka, you become a sort of ambassador of the faith and your conduct should be in line with the strictest application of the same.

The social custom of removing head gear while eating and indoors runs in direct contradiction to the religious custom of either covering the head at all times or donning it to pray, which one does prior to eating.

If we take for example, an observant Jew, lets call him Mr. Cohen. Now Mr. Cohen has been invited to meet non-jewish contacts at a casual restaurant to discuss a real estate deal. Perhaps he is modern Orthodox and tucks in his tzitzit (fringes) and trims his facial hair with an electric razor in accordance with the lenient view on beards. He can eat a salad and have a beer in that restaurant without violating kashrut however, he cannot be seen wearing a kippah in a non-kosher restaurant as this could potentially give the impression to onlookers that the restaurant serves kosher food or that an observant Jew was seen eating at a pork rib roadhouse for example. Not only that, while Mr. Cohen's faith is important to him, he is not comfortable enough with his level of piety to be seen as an ambassador of the faith.

So Mr. Cohen will wear some style of hat to blend in with the locals of the establishment. It will perhaps be a flat cap or a baseball cap or a fedora.

And he won't be the only one with a hat on either. Other people will have them on as fashion statements. They will leave them on to conceal their "hat head".

So in a world where people aren't sticklers about the antiquated "take off your hat indoors" thing, Mr. Cohen is comfortable and so are the people with messy hair.

When the old and quite arbitrary Roman custom is enforced out of fealty to times gone by, Mr. Cohen can't blend in and all the men who do like hats but still have some hair are relegated to looking ridiculous.

If you don't want to wear a hat in doors, don't. But in the spirit of "respecting the feelings of others" from which etiquette is derived, mind your own business. Take off your hat and nevermind the hats of those around you.

By the way, if Mr. Cohen lost a parent or sibling within the last seven days, his beard would certainly be unkempt as his religion demands that he not engage in such grooming activities while in the first phase of mourning.

Folks should spend more time worrying about their own conduct than that of others. Things are not always as they appear.

[CMcG]

I think the issue of clothing is a complex one, which has as much to do with socio-economic class, culture, and/or religion, as it does with age, fashion, media, and the capitalist industrial mode of production...

In the much more narrow world of traditional tartan kilt-wearers, I'd say there is a general tendency to dress up, rather than dress down