Historic Quiz

[An t-Ileach]

Robbie,

The Welsh are not Gaelic. They come from the Brythonic branch of the Celtic peoples, along with the peoples of South West Scotland (Strathclyde), Southern England and Brittany.

Rob (A mostly Brythonic Celt)

In general this is right, however, to complicate matters considerably, there has been a long and constant settlement of Irish in parts of Wales.

The Llyn Peninsula and the neighbouring parts of Gwynedd and Meirionydd have a lot of Irish 'blood', as have parts of Pembrokeshire and also the Gower Peninsula and Swansea (these latter were settled at one time - before the coming of the Northmen from Limerick (hence Swansea - Svegnes Nes) - by an Irish clan called the Ui Leathain, who may have been some of the Deisi on the run). Also, there's quite a lot of Welsh (Brythonic?) settlement in the area of Cork.

This is also true of the Cornish Peninsula (which probably should include Devon and Somerset), and Brittany. There is also evidence of Irish settling in Galicia in historic time.

St Asaph and some other foundations nearby on the northern coast of Gwynedd were tributary houses associated with Saints Moluag and Mungo - in the latter case Lothian, and therefore Brythonic, but in the case of the former certainly Gaelic.

The north-west of England from the Welsh border to the Scottish border were Welsh speaking areas at the time of the coming of the Northmen - hence Cumbria, which once described the whole area - and, if we take what has happened in west and north-west Wales as an indication, almost certainly shared the cross-settlement with Ireland, Man, and Galloway (and thus Gaelic-ness).

So we should probably be cautious about drawing hard-and-fast conclusions about the Western Insular and Continental Celts. And given the patterns of cross-settlement and mixing of populations, it's going to be a fair bet that Welsh, Cornish, Bretons, and Gallegos would be able to put up a passable claim to sharing in the Irish/Scots heritage - and probably vice versa.

[highlander_Daz]

Im always cautious about history books and what can be gleaned off the internet, "facts" are often anything but, I dont think Robs too far off the mark, but I always take stuff off the net with a pinch o salt.

Like I say ive always been very cynical about "Tartans" especially modern ones designed to extract as much money as possible from tourists, anyone unlucky enough not to have a "family" Tartan can choose from a myriad of different "Regional" or heritage/flower of/heather of/ etc etc.

Im not denigrating regional Tartans so long as people are aware they are a fairly recent design, in fact I have a "flower of Scotland" 8 yard because I like the colours and I like the connection to our national anthem.

The more people know about Tartans and the origin of the designs then the more that people will apreciate how special they are , not because they are old but because of what they stand for.

[Robbie]

Hi Rob -

Didn't actually say the Welsh are Gaels. The Gaels who left Ireland settled down the north-west coast of Britain, mainly in the Highlands of Scotland, Wales and the Isle of Man. In Scotland they took over from the Picts as the dominant group, also in the Isle of Man (but from whom I know not), but failed in Wales where, as you say, those of Celtic origin retained control. Nevertheless, it is believed that at one time there was a significant Gaelic presence in Wales.

I think the Scots, Welsh and Irish all have a common heritage in the Celts, Gaels, Picts and Norse (albeit in differing proportions) - but I'm not going to try and count the number of bloodlines in England!

[switchblade5984]

i got three right (good guesser)

good night all!

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I just want to say that Robbie is 100% correct. The kilt did not evolve from the leine. It evolved, rather, from the mantle worn on top of the leine, which has, at various times, been called a plaid, or a brat.

Remember, the first form of the kilt was the feilidh-mhor, aka the "belted plaid." The plaid was a large woolen wrap that was worn as an outer layer over the shoulders, like an oversized shawl. It is this garment that changed, grew larger, and at the end of the sixteenth century began to be worn gathered up into folds and belted at the waist.

Remember, too, that "leine" is simply the Gaelic word for "shirt." The Scots who migrated from Ireland to Scotland wore the leine, it is true. But this just means they wore a shirt! The style of tunic they wore in the fifth and sixth centuries was greatly different from the style worn in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries. The sixteenth century style of leine, with full sleeves and, yes, sometimes a pleated skirt below the waist, represents only one style of leine. There is a temptation at times to assume this style was the onle one ever worn. The fact of the matter is that, despite certain similarities (pleating of the garment below the waist) the leine and the belted plaid are two different garments, having two different origins, and two different functions.

The liene evolved from a simple tunic, and was essentially a long shirt. The feilidh-mhor evolved from a simple wrap or mantle, and was essentially a long wrap that was belted around the waist. The fact that both are pleated is coincidental.

Aye,
Matt

[MACKAY]

Very interesting reading, not boring at all Robbie - remindes me of one of my favorite quotes:

"I have found a great part of the information I have was aquired by looking for something and finding something else on the way."

Thanks for all of the great info ...

Brian Mackay

[bear]

However, from the mid-1900s onwards it appears that every author on the subject has concluded that these early writings and carvings actually refer to or show either the leine or a short pleated jacket which was apparently widespread throughout Europe in the 14/1500s, and that all the evidence indicates that the leine is not, never was, and never became, the kilt and that actually there is no historic Irish connection of any kind to the kilt.

Rubbish.
A pleated garment (the leine) worn with a wool brat travels to a new country with emigrees where a pleated garment (the kilt) is made from wool, and you see no connection?
I don't think you see as clearly as the Executive President of The Scottish Tartans Society, who agrees with what I'm saying.
I'm not going to argue this any more because as I've said, I don't really care where the kilt originated.
I don't think it matters one bit to the guys who nowadays wear kilts as garments, not costumes.
Bye.

[Robbie]

Oh dear, I seem to have upset Bear slightly by challenging one of his long-held perceptions that the kilt is a direct descendant of the leine, and for someone who claims he doesn’t really care where the kilt originated he’s sure bloomin’ argumentative about it!

Whilst I’m sure that most of you are totally bored to tears with this, nevertheless to use an old Scots phrase “facts are chiels that winnae ding” and I am compelled to set the record straight on this (no you’re not – yes I am – no you’re not – yes I am -oh all right then).

There is no dispute amongst any authority that when the Gaels first came to Scotland they wore the leine and the brat. What were these garments? There is unanimous agreement that the leine was a long shirt/tunic/smock type one piece shaped garment, generally made of linen, which reached from the neck to anywhere between mid-thigh and ankle length although widely worn at the shorter length, was put on by pulling over the head, had arm holes/short sleeves/long sleeves, could be straight, full or pleated (pleating had been known for centuries), was often padded or quilted and usually worn with a belt. The brat was simply a mantle or cloak which could be made of any material but most commonly wool, sometimes hooded, worn over the leine. Additionally, a short jacket, which could also be pleated, was sometimes also worn over the leine.

There is also unanimous agreement amongst all authoritative writers that around the 1500s, and in Scotland only, the woollen belted plaid aka the great kilt appeared, and it is this garment and not the leine which was the forerunner of the kilt as we know it today. Whilst Bear claims that the book foreworded by the Executive President of the Scottish Tartans Society agrees with his theory that the kilt developed from the leine I’m afraid it says no such thing. What the extract on the Internet actually says is “By the end of the sixteenth century, or perhaps before that time, a further garment, the Belted Plaid, was certainly being worn by many Highlanders.” The key words here are “further garment” ie the Belted Plaid was being worn in addition to (or on top of) the leine, and this is in total agreement with all the other available documentary evidence, which also indicate that in turn the leine simply developed into a form of shorter shirt worn under the Belted Plaid or, for the poorest Highlanders, simply vanished altogether.

[Alaskan]

Whilst I’m sure that most of you are totally bored to tears with this,

Robbie, don't worry about whether some people might be bored or not. If the conversation bores someone they don't have to read it. Personally, I am very interested in history and find this thread to be one of the more interesting threads in the forum.

[Casey]

Robbie,

Thanks for stirring up the pot. It's great to see the different interpretations of history. History is as much art and interpretation as it is science. We have a few facts and we fill in the, sometimes rather large, gaps with theory and opinion.

This thread has got me reevaluating my historical viewpoint.

I think that we may be creating new history. We are now taking a garment that has a history and applying it to our current culture and technology and coming up with something new and, in my opinion exciting.

Casey