Which tartan for MacClive?

[creagdhubh]

The rest of my family seems to be also all scots that moved to the south in the late 1600's and early 18th century. These include Clarks and Carswells.

The surname of Clark (Clerich) has long been established as a traditional associated family name with the Clan Macpherson. Currently, we have quite a few Macpherson clansmen and clanswomen that have the surname of Clark, Clarke, Clarkson, Clerich, or Clerk. Of course, as I previously stated, a surname is often just the tip of the iceberg and a good start. Further genealogical research determining where in Scotland your various Scottish ancestors emigrated from will shed more of a conclusive light, as well as helping you determine which tartan you would like to wear.

http://www.clan-macpherson.org/assocfamilies.html

[Nathan]

The surname of Clark (Clerich) has long been established as a traditional associated family name with the Clan Macpherson. Currently, we have quite a few Macpherson clansmen and clanswomen that have the surname of Clark, Clarke, Clarkson, Clerich, or Clerk. Of course, as I previously stated, a surname is often just the tip of the iceberg and a good start. Further genealogical research determining where in Scotland your various Scottish ancestors emigrated from will shed more of a conclusive light, as well as helping you determine which tartan you would like to wear.

http://www.clan-macpherson.org/assocfamilies.html

That's absolutely correct, and even when you know where your ancestors emigrated from, it's just an educated guess because people moved around Scotland.

Case in point, I know I'm a MacDonald of Clanranald because my father told me and his father told him and all of our distant cousins know also etc... However, my ancestors came to Nova Scotia from the Isle of Lewis which is MacLeod of Lewis territory, not Clanranald territory. The Clanranald were centred around Caste Tioram, Arisaig, South Uist etc... so even though Lewis was controlled by the Lordship of the Isles long ago, it was never really Clanranald territory and the MacLeods had ascended to control it for quite some time before 1804.

My point is that if I had just known that I was a MacDonald with an ancestor from the Isle of Lewis and didn't have the Clanranald oral tradition in my family, I likely would not have figured it out from those clues alone.

It's really tough to reconstruct it once the clan tradition is broken in a family. I'd hazard a guess that there are many people who saw their name on a sept list, bought a tartan and were off base about their actual family line. Especially people with physically descriptive or occupational names which pop up everywhere and therefore on everyone's list. Add that to the fact that people can have the same surname but be coincidentally descended from different people with the same name.

[creagdhubh]

That's absolutely correct, and even when you know where your ancestors emigrated from, it's just an educated guess because people moved around Scotland.

Case in point, I know I'm a MacDonald of Clanranald because my father told me and his father told him and all of our distant cousins know also etc... However, my ancestors came to Nova Scotia from the Isle of Lewis which is MacLeod of Lewis territory, not Clanranald territory. The Clanranald were centred around Caste Tioram, Arisaig, South Uist etc... so even though Lewis was controlled by the Lordship of the Isles long ago, it was never really Clanranald territory and the MacLeods had ascended to control it for quite some time before 1804.

My point is that if I just know I was a MacDonald from the Isle of Lewis and didn't have the Clanranald oral tradition, I likely would not have figured it out from those clues alone.

It's really tough to reconstruct it once the tradition is broken in a family. I'd hazard a guess that there are many people who saw there name on a sept list, bought a tartan and were off base about their actual family. Especially people with physically descriptive or occupational names which pop up everywhere. Add that to the fact that people can have the same surname but be coincidentally descended from different people with the same name.

That's exactly right, Nathan. Excellent points here, mate.

[David]

Hate to put a spanner in the works regarding the gaelic origin of the name Livingston; and hence MacClive. According to the the Livingston Alive web site, the name has saxon origins. "Livingston Village gets its name from the Saxon named Leving or Leuing & from Old English tun or toun meaning settlement".

[Nathan]

Hate to put a spanner in the works regarding the gaelic origin of the name Livingston; and hence MacClive. According to the the Livingston Alive web site, the name has saxon origins. "Livingston Village gets its name from the Saxon named Leving or Leuing & from Old English tun or toun meaning settlement".

I came across that claim also. Well done finding that and thanks for bringing it into the discussion. Honestly, I don't think this throws much of a spanner in the works. We know that the Gaelic MacLeay clan often translated their name to "Livingston" and, along with McKinleys, come from Livingston. The fact that the town may have been named after a Saxon named Leving, wouldn't preclude a Gaelic speaking clan being subsequently named after the town. The original "Leod" form whom we get Leodhas (Lewis) and the MacLeod clans was probably Scandanavian but the MacLeod clan was definitely Gaelic.

Lets also remember how much of Scotland was at one time Gaelic speaking. Ayrshire isn't so far from Ireland, Galloway or Argyll and was certainly Gaelic at one point. The place names tell the tale. Kilmarnock = Cille Mheàrnaig, Ayr = Inbhir Air, Carrick = A' Charraig, so it's also possible that as Scots became the language of choice, Saxon roots became more desirable than Goidelic ones.

So we see a few competing theories of which Gaelic words (native or transliterated) the family names MacLeay, MacClive, Dunlevy, and Livingston come from but all of them are purported by some to trace back to "Dunnsleibhe" at some point. Is it "leibhe", a Gaelic transliteration of the Saxon Leving or is it "sleibhe" or physician or is it really a brown haired mountain chieftain?

There are lots of possibilities. One thing I've found out about studying Scottish history is that people are liberal publishing "facts" to suit their politics. Separating the myth and folklore from the historical record is indeed a challenge and sometimes it comes down to a coin toss with the two camps entrenched on various positions that have been debated for hundreds of years.

That's what makes it challenging, but it's also what makes it so much fun. There's always a puzzle and you can't always take what you see written at face value. This is even more true if you're reading a coffee table book about tartan or a website written by an enthusiastic lay person.

The unbiased rigour expected of an academic historian has never been expected of the folk historian or seannachie. Moreover, "antiquarians" made a lot of money manufacturing histories and Noble pedigrees for rich land owners in Scotland over the past two hundred plus years, so I suspect we'll spend the next six hundred untangling their creative versions of events if we ever succeed in doing so.

Since the sectarian divide, many families in Ireland and Scotland have re-written their histories to exclude or downplay any connection to their cousins from the other country.

Source documents contemporary to the time are, as always, our best resource, but they are not always at our finger tips.

Thanks to the OP for asking a challenging question that has so far lead to an interesting thread.

[ctbuchanan]

The National Trust registry doesn't show the name MacClive (or similar) in the 1881 or 1998 census as having more than 100 instances in the U.K. so it's very rare indeed.
I did come across a thread elsewhere that links it to Stewart of Appin but then quotes the Stewart Society as saying it is not a sept of theirs and that it is probably Irish.
The Surname Database doesn't list the name

[Domehead]

Following this with great interest. Mr. MacDonald, Nathan and Kyle - you've done a wonderful job sorting things.

Ryan

[MacCorquodale]

The National Trust registry doesn't show the name MacClive (or similar) in the 1881 or 1998 census as having more than 100 instances in the U.K. so it's very rare indeed.
I did come across a thread elsewhere that links it to Stewart of Appin but then quotes the Stewart Society as saying it is not a sept of theirs and that it is probably Irish.
The Surname Database doesn't list the name

Yes, that is where I first found it but it was always brought up that we were Scottish and that I was still 100% Scottish due to my mother's family also being Scottish. They were proud of that fact.

I've never heard anything about Irish being in the mix. This mostly coming from my father's family since his side was fiercely proud of being Scottish, since my Grandfather Ian and his siblings were born there.

I'm still new so my posts have to be approved so I couldn't edit my previous post but I also remember my father bringing up a tenuous connection to Mary Queen of scots as well. So, that and the tales of being related to Robert the Bruce in some way would seem to lend to Stewart/ Stewart of Appin being correct?

When I read the wiki on those two clans I remember thinking, "Oh, so this is what my Dad was talking about!"

But then of course, every soldier nowadays was a sniper or ranger and rarely a cook or supply clerk.

Not sure how much stock to put in it but I've found over time most of the things my parents told me about my ancestors has proven to be true.

One of them I though was untrue was that we were related to one of the fathers of bluegrass on my mother's side and that this founder would play at all the family reunions my mother went to.

Well after some research it turns out Dock Boggs is my Great uncle. So, who knows?

[MacCorquodale]

That's absolutely correct, and even when you know where your ancestors emigrated from, it's just an educated guess because people moved around Scotland.

Case in point, I know I'm a MacDonald of Clanranald because my father told me and his father told him and all of our distant cousins know also etc... However, my ancestors came to Nova Scotia from the Isle of Lewis which is MacLeod of Lewis territory, not Clanranald territory. The Clanranald were centred around Caste Tioram, Arisaig, South Uist etc... so even though Lewis was controlled by the Lordship of the Isles long ago, it was never really Clanranald territory and the MacLeods had ascended to control it for quite some time before 1804.

My point is that if I had just known that I was a MacDonald with an ancestor from the Isle of Lewis and didn't have the Clanranald oral tradition in my family, I likely would not have figured it out from those clues alone.

It's really tough to reconstruct it once the clan tradition is broken in a family. I'd hazard a guess that there are many people who saw their name on a sept list, bought a tartan and were off base about their actual family line. Especially people with physically descriptive or occupational names which pop up everywhere and therefore on everyone's list. Add that to the fact that people can have the same surname but be coincidentally descended from different people with the same name.

My father always told me we were related to Robert the Bruce in some fashion as his father told him. So there's that tidbit.

[David]

Tim, have you used the Scotlands People website? http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

I tried a couple of searches of the birth records for Ian Robert MacClive. with no luck. I noticed you spelt his name as Ian and not Iain. Ian being the anglisised version of the name I thought I'd try Robert MacClive with a wide year range. i used Robert as sometimes when families had only a few christian name variations (like mine did) they used other names to differentiate between individuals and "Ian" just seemed strange to me. I got 11 results between 1538 and 1845. I have run out of credits on the scotlandspeople web site and cant be bothered going upstairs for my plastic to buy more, so over to you if you think its worth following up. You may at least find a possible geographical origin for your families name.